Two gay men in Indonesia sentenced to 85 lashes for having sex


#63

Then you are denying reality. Scott Lively tried to CREATE movements calling for just (based on Christian belief) that in parts of the developing world. He even made some inroads in Russia, supporting their law to imprison gays.


#64

I absolutely agree that there are some very dangerous people who follow Christianity.
Uganda is not really a fair example of anything. I studied Ugandan culture at university, and I have also had the opportunity to visit the country personally. If pacifism took hold in Uganda, it would likely be a uniquely violent form of pacifism.
Just as Albania is a poor example to bring up as a typical of Islamic majority countries. "Religious observance and practice is generally lax and polls have shown that, compared to the populations of other countries, few Albanians consider religion to be a dominant factor in their lives."
I think we are all horrified by reports of concentration camps for gays in Russia. But it is worth noting that the camps are all reported as being in Chechnya, which is 95% Sunni Islam.


#65

And the Chechen leaders are Putin lackies, yeah? The Russians have also been cracking down on LBGQT people for the past few years. It’s again, not a Islam problem, as much as it is a conservative traditionalist authoritarian problem. I’d suggest that mainstream political advocates for anti-gay therapy would be happy to brutalize the gay community, if they thought they could get away with it now, but the majority Americans do support gay rights now. But we can see these crackdowns on specific groups as also being a tactic of finding an issue that you can rally people around and creating a scapegoat to blame for a countries problems. None of that is new, it’s just that the gay community has become newly active globally in recent years, thanks in part of the successes in Western countries. As they are putting their necks out in many places, they are being victimized more and more.

Also, the “Ugandans are thugs” mindset, not a good look. I’d suggest looking to history and now innate characteristics of Ugandans to understand the problems there.


#66

I don’t agree with everything she says there, but I do think that there are Muslim feminists and that women in the Arab peninsula gained a whole new host of rights under Islam, some of which were unique until the Napoleonic codes started to be the standard.

Nor do I think that western, liberal feminists can’t be condescending towards women from other cultures. They very much can be.

Is there patriarchal culture in many Islamic majority countries? You bet. Is it unique to Islamic majority countries? HELL NO.


#67

I think the relationship between Putin and Kadyrov is complicated. But Kadyrov has endorsed honor killings and other Sharia tenets. Not that Russia is an example of tolerance, either.
But I have to agree that the visibility of LGBT issues has made the human rights abuses against them more apparent. And the evangelicals have to be kept on a short leash.
My daughter is driving up to DJ at an LGBT event this evening. It is sad that I have to warn her to keep alert, especially when arriving or departing the event, and to keep a can of bear spray close.


#68

I doubt it’s that complicated, honestly (other than the actual complication of being in the world). Having the Chechen leader under the Kremlin’s thumb accomplishes a couple of goals - first, it extends Putin’s authoritarian reach into a region previously known for producing problems for Moscow in the recent past. Second, it helps to create a bogey man to justify some of Putin’s other policies in Muslim majority country, such as his support of Assad. He can say (creating a false dichotomy, of course), “look what happens when we allow Islamists to overthrow a secular leader like Assad!” And of course Kadyrov gets to rule a country. We’ve seen how that sort of sponsoring of dictators actually works out in the real world, though (see, as just ONE example, Saddam Hussein).

These are the sort of choices people in powerful positions make when trying to shape the world to their desires. The right wing (in both here and Russia) has long ago decided that religious nuts with authoritarian characteristics are preferable to socialists. That is another part of the problem, people in powerful countries empowering people with nutty religious views, because at least they aren’t commies.

Hope she has a great set! And here’s hoping she stays safe. Has this event been threatened in anyway?


#69

No, it is very low key. They also have security. If the event had received any threats, I would go myself and escort. If she sees any protesters at all, she calls me. But they have never had any trouble before.

I always associate Chechnya with the Beslan school and the Dubrovka Theatre. I think many Russians do as well.

The biggest problem with scapegoating gays is their fairly even distribution through humanity. People who hate gays are just as likely to have a gay child as anyone else.


#70

Remind me again, how many female presidents has the US had?


#71

Patriarchal culture enforced by law is increasingly concentrated in Muslim majority countries. That’s what most of the thread is about.


#72

You don’t seem to be interested in considering an opposing viewpoint from women and/or historians. It’s not merely an academic exercise (hah) for some of us to know this stuff…it’s our lives.


#73

No doubt. It was a horrific event and the authorities were partially responsible for the deaths there. I’m sure that’s now how the media spins it though.[quote=“Max_Blancke, post:69, topic:101086”]
The biggest problem with scapegoating gays is their fairly even distribution through humanity. People who hate gays are just as likely to have a gay child as anyone else.
[/quote]

And in that case, they either rejection their children, rationalize their hatred of other gay people, or come around on the issue. [quote=“lolipop_jones, post:71, topic:101086”]
Patriarchal culture enforced by law is increasingly concentrated in Muslim majority countries.
[/quote]


#74

As I’ve said here and elsewhere, I’d be happy to abide by the results of a nationwide referendum on abortion in which only women could vote.


#75

It doesn’t matter what views you and I have. The right wing is moving against women. We’re not getting a referendum on abortion, because for one thing, that’s not how our democratic system works, and for another, they are well aware that they’d lose.

That aside, MY RIGHTS ARE UNDER ATTACK RIGHT NOW. This is from people who believe in the patriarchy and how it organizes society.

So forgive me if it irritates me that people get spun up about attacks on women’s rights and LBGQT rights, etc, in other places, while fundamentally ignoring it in their own back yards. Personally, I think we should get pissed about the whole ball of wax both here and there, and stop pretending as if women are only under attack under some foreign religion that too many of us don’t fully understand. It would be nice if people who rail against two gay men being brutalized in Indonesia, cared as much about the same basket of issues here.


#76

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