By that same convoluted logic, your life would be immediately worth less if you decide to defend yourself with lethal force. “He broke my imaginary social contract first” is not an excuse for you also breaking the social contract or where does it end?
this. we don’t live in the frontiers of old and certainly shouldn’t take the law into our own hands, especially capital punishment.
I swear that here in the US there are a lot of folks itching to lethally defend themselves which is disturbing. murder looking for a justification and excuse.
It’s not relevant to the pure feasibility on a marksmanship basis. And in discussions like these, it’s practically consistently suggested that it is entirely impossible to reliably hit extremities, not just legally not feasible.
But speaking of liabilities, I’m not quite sure that the risk of liabilities is really smaller in the case of a panicked emptying of a magazine. If anything, the risk of hitting bystanders, and if it is with a ricochet, is substantially higher than when relying on a few well placed shots.
Are you aware the NYPD regularly fires as many bullets as people as the police forces of Germany in toto? And Germany does have a 5 million people metroplex with substantial social hotspots in the Ruhr area.
Wait what? No, no they aren’t. Guns are more lethal at close range.
If you are talking about the dojo fantasy scenario of a highly trained defender and a untrained attacker with a holstered and safetyed weapon then you haven’t really spoken with many people with actual experience. The 30 ft gun/knife rule is pure bullshit in the real world and was invented by Hollywood. This isn’t tag or a dual. I’d go to a different dojo.
when in the real world do two people standing 30ft apart with weapons put away decide to attack each other simultaneously. on your marks, get set, go…no wait, do over. that isn’t how it works in the real world.
killing someone with a knife when they are actively defending themselves is much harder then with a gun unless the knife wielder is highly trained. the gun wielder doesn’t require the same expertise or effort.
Whatever you say Mr. Expert. Technically speaking it’s much easier to use a knife. Point and stab. Guns have safeties and you need some base knowledge. There is a very good reason law enforcement shoot guys people with knives when threatened inside that 30 foot radius. Also try it when your under stress. Also a knife can be more easily concealed. You won’t know you’re stabbed in most cases until you are stabbed. It’s not a dojo fantasy. It’s baked into law enforcement training. My training however is, you see a knife, you fucking run. A gun too but people underestimate a knife. Like you just did.
point and stab sounds very easy as long as your opponent is standing still. Thing is people have that tendency to not want to get hurt. Sidestepping a stab and dodging a bullet are two entirely different beasts, however.
I agree it’s hard. Both are. Try hitting a moving target, at close range, with a pistol. Neither is as easy as people like to think. Another fun fantasy people like to think is one bullet, one kill.
The feasibility depends greatly on the situation. A guy standing there being threatening but you have time to make a two handed, aimed shot at a leg is very feasible. Some one charging, giving you an adrenaline dump is going to be harder. Something requiring a draw and shot, using only one hand, back peddling, etc is going to be even harder.
Yes, NYPD especially has a bad rep for poor shooting. Part of that is the RIDICULOUSLY heavy and long Glock trigger they make Glock put on all of their guns in order to discourage accidental discharges and lawsuits. The other part is they probably need more practice. But I have already acknowledged that there are too many examples of cops and bad shoots.
You also won’t know you’re shot until you’re shot, you won’t know you’ve orgasmed until you’ve orgasmed, and you won’t know you’re dead until… It’s hard to know something’s happened until after it’s happened. Time only moves in one direction.
You’re right. Stupid use of words. I’ll use better words, you’re less likely to know someone is armed with a knife until you are stabbed than you are with someone who is armed with a gun before they are shot. You have to pull your piece, aim and shoot (possibly disengage safety and maybe even chamber a round). Personally I would shit my pants if someone chambered a round on me, but I digress. A knife is quieter and more easily concealed. Also more common. FBI 2015 states 5x more people killed with knives than guns in 2015 - not pertinent, just a fun fact. Guns are deadly. Knives are deadly. My only point is doesn’t matter who you are, or what you’re armed with, a knife wielding assailant is not a joke. It is the most common weapon used in violent attacks in both US and Canada.
Well obviously knives are easier to acquire than guns even with the lose gun laws of the US. The cheapest gun is also still going to be ten times cheaper than a simple knife as well.
As tested by Mythbusters, and as routinely used as justification by US police to shoot knife wielders.
What they tend to forget to mention is that scenario models an unprepared gun-user suddenly surprised by a knife. In the overwhelming majority of US police shootings of knife wielders, this is not the case.
Much more typically, the police weapons are already drawn and aimed at the soon-to-be victim. In which case, the dangerous distance is sharply reduced and the time pressure is virtually eliminated.
You deal with knives by standing back and warning bystanders to keep clear until sufficient backup arrives to drop the offender non-lethally. Even after that, you still talk them down if possible. There’s no rush.
But the demo is not say which is better or more deadly. It simply demonstrates why you do not underestimate a knife or even someone you’re not sure doesn’t have a knife. Even if you have a firearm. Even at 25’. Calmer heads prevail.
I’m okay with it; they backed off once he became threatening, continued to retreat once he charged, and only resorted to force after he attacked in a manner that was difficult to retreat from.
They may have been a bit trigger-happy with the call for pepper spray at the beginning (although it’s unclear whether the call for “spray!” was an instruction to draw it or use it; the first is fine, the second is arguably problematic). The overuse of less-lethal police weaponry is a global problem.
Edit to add:
I suspect that your concern was over police tactical wisdom rather than use-of-force. I’m still not bothered by the police actions shown in the OP.
Assuming an adequate level of skill on the baton user’s part, the knife holder in a knife vs baton fight is in for a world of pain. The superior reach and leverage of the baton is a large advantage.
The knife user has to expose their hand either to attack or defend, and a single shot from the baton will cripple the hand. On defence, batons (especially tonfa-style) are specialised parrying weapons. Combined with the anti-stab vests worn by UK police, this substantially reduces the threat of the knife.
UK cops are well equipped and recieve a significant amount of training in genuine martial arts [1]. If a pair of unsurprised patrol bobbies can’t safely deal with one untrained drunk chubby arsehole with a knife, they aren’t fit to be on the streets.
Police have as much right to safety as anybody else. It can be a dangerous job, it’s not the only one, I can’t think of any other dangerous job that doesn’t have a lot of workplace safety regulations to protect the workers. This implies that as a society we value the lives of people who chose to work in dangerous occupations, we value the lives of drug users to the point that the more progressive cities have safe injection sites for them (and I can’t really think of a more self-destructive pastime than shooting heroin).
It’s incorrect to say that police shouldn’t have to risk their lives, as you point out, it’s a dangerous job and they know what they are signing up for but they should have a right (as every other worker in any other dangerous job) to be given as much protection from those dangers as possible. No one signs up to be a police officer to be stabbed, they sign up to make a difference. Police lives aren’t more valuable than anybody else’s, they are exactly as valuable as anybody else’s.
The raison d’etre of the police is to protect people. A dead police officer can’t stop the guy with the knife from harming people. Depriving the police of a tool (no matter how distasteful it is) doesn’t make sense.
If anything the video shows why firearms are needed, the taser and the pepper spray failed to have any effect. The baton worked but it won’t every time.
It’s also worth noting that police don’t “shoot to kill”, they shoot to incapacitate. We’re clever monkeys however, especially when it comes to designing ways to kill each other, and firearms are good at what they do so frequently people who get shot die.
