Ukraine asks Canada to continue training troops to oppose Russia's invasive bullshit


#21

Aren’t there Nazis in Ukraine? Aren’t Ukrainian kids asked to dig trenches (in case of Russian invasion)? Is this a paid post? What about the money US spent to destabilize Ukraine elected government? Need to validate propagaganda about Russia? http://thesaker.is


#22

Yes, there are. So there are in the US, in Russia, and in most European countries. And Russia is one of the biggest sources of funding for all these far-right groups, so spare me the handwringing.


#23

How do Russian astroturfers find these posts so quickly?

Say anything even mildly critical of Russia and suddenly a bunch of IRA trolls show up to explain how actually everyone else in the world besides Putin are the bad ones, and it’s actually good that they blew up a plane full of civilians for no reason.


#24

They were convinced to align with Russia by Facebook.


#25

Btw, I wonder how do they manage to identify friends or foes, since it seems that every unit in this war has its own flag… Anyway, the similiarities with the situation during russian civil war are striking… Like the recollection of an old trauma…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insurrectionary_Army_of_Ukrain


#26

We should post gay pictures to cast them out !


#27

You spent a lot of composing a response there that strenuously avoided addressing what I actually said in my comment. Once you respond to my actual points without twisting them I’ll be glad to respond on a point-by-point basis.

To be clear, I don’t think you’re a troll like @eddycurrent.

The IRA and similar outfits likely have an in-house version of Google Alerts that they use to monitor headlines from a list of high-traffic or influential Western sites with comment sections. When one comes up a troll is assigned to write a comment. On a well-moderated site like this their usually get wiped quickly , so their first step is either creating a brand new account or using one from a list set up years ago.

Either way, most of the time they’re pretty obvious. Quality control at the troll farms varies wildly, but most of them are hacks with poor ESL skills.


#29

Then there’s this:


#30

Ok, let me try again, with less snark.

only one of those regimes has an underlying doctrine of territorial expansion

I didn’t see before you linked a book there. True, that is a more than questionable work. But expression of intent by certain groups (with undetermined influence) is one thing. Looking at what happened so far in this century tells a different story to me. Do I really need to mention that Russia is not the only party that has a geopolitical agenda, and backs it up with military action? When you look at the current situation in Europe, it is pretty clear that the West has expanded its military alliance right up to the Russian border, despite all promises and assurances that were given in connection with the Warsaw Pact’s and Soviet Unions dissolution. American and European troops are holding maneuvers a few kilometers off the Russian border, not the other way around. The last thirty years of European developments, from Russia’s perspective, must amount to something like their own Cuban Missile Crisis, only on a larger scale, and more permanent. Thus, accusing Russia of expansionism, while lauding NATO as a peacekeeper, seems very one sided to me.

Of course it cannot be denied that Russia’s military actions on Ukrainian territory are a breach of international law. So what, they say: so was NATO’s dismemberment of Yugoslavia, the US led invasion of Iraq, and so on. Sure, tit-by-tat doesn’t make anything legal, but it will definitely keep me from cheering for NATO.

That book you linked… ugh. It sounds almost as insane as if it was written by John Bolton.

  • Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe.
  • France should be encouraged to form a “Franco–German bloc” with Germany
  • Estonia should be given to Germany’s sphere of influence.

All of these items have long been realized, under a common name, which is “the European Union”.

  • The UK should be cut off from Europe

That is just Brexit. Again, no significant number of Russians involved. Unless one falls into the camp of those who refuse to take responsibility for domestic issues, because it is far easier to blame Russian spies and hackers than to address the people’s discontent with meaningful reforms.

  • Kaliningrad oblast could be given back to Germany.

That is just… nonsense. It is of immense military and economic value to Russia, and next to worthless to Germany, and not one out of ten Germans would touch that topic with a thousand year pole.

  • Both countries have a “firm anti-Atlanticist tradition”

Sure, there are such tendencies, but American culture is ubiquitous and that’s how it’s going to stay. This is a tradition from the last century.

  • Finland should be absorbed into Russia.

About as likely as Trump annexing Canada or bombing Mexico.

  • Ukraine should be annexed by Russia

Not going to happen, if only because it is not in Russia’s interest to have the West loose their shit, impose sanctions, etcetera. But I don’t expect Russia to leave Crimea or Donbass, either. NATO can, by their own statute, not accept a new member that is in a current state of conflict, and that’s probably the main reason the Russians are there. They were able to do that because the majority population in these regions has close ties to Russia, and thus would not be inclined towards armed resistance.

This is a stalemate. There is no consensus to be found here, not in the foreseeable future. The best case scenario for both sides is to keep the status quo, and tip toe around the issue for the decades to come, to avoid any catastrophic military escalation. Sending more troops there, from either side, is not helping with that.


#31

I agree. Territorial expansion isn’t easy, but the fact remains that Putin’s regime is grounded in Dugin’s work and relies on tossing red meat to its ultra-nationalist supporters, even if only in the form of promises supported by activities like the intervention of Little Green Men in Ukraine or testing incursions into the airspace and territorial waters of neighbouring countries.

You might be surprised to discover that, based on history, I thought Russia had a legitimate claim to Crimea. What I deplored was Putin pursuing it through various forms of chicanery and intimidation of the sort we’re seeing in the more dubious case of a claim to eastern Ukraine.

Those countries weren’t asked to join. They applied for membership or partnership. Russia may see that as a threat or incursion on “their” territory or sphere of influence, but they have no legitimate claims to the former Soviet “republics” or former imperial possessions that have now become those bordering countries.

Iraq is a separate issue: a U.S.-led coalition from which several high-profile NATO member states abstained and which involved a bunch of non-NATO states.

The Balkans, as always, were a messy situation. I don’t excuse NATO’s actions, but the dismemberment was a continution of separatism and Russia, in its long-standing role as protector of the Serbs, played an at least equivalent part in creating that debacle.

Dugin makes Bolton look like Dag Hammarskjold. He’s a truly toxic figure with more influence in his own country than Bolton could dream of.

Correct. Putin’s goal following the realisation of the EU is to ensure that it’s too weak and divided to oppose the other imperial aspirations mentioned.

The Russians interfered in the referendum and supported right-wing populist Leavers, and continue to spread disinformation that will end in a hard and disastrous Brexit. That’s not to excuse the UK’s domestic Know-Nothings or the Tories, but they’re getting a lot of value for the ruble in helping to plant the seeds of this disaster.

Dugin’s stuff may seem fantastical and unrealistic in the context of reality, but Putin has used it as the basis of securing the support of Russia’s Know-Nothing 27%. As long as he shows that he’s trying and delivers a new piece of territory to Russia every 8 years or so they’re happy.

NATO troops are not being sent to Ukraine in numbers close to those of the “vacationing” Russian combat troops in Donbass. If NATO brings in combat troops in support of Ukraine in similar numbers I’ll worry, but this is a training mission.


#32

slowly there, I wouldnt be that sure about it.

and only one of them has been murdering political opponents on foreign soil.

I dont know if killing your political opponents on home-soil at the maidan makes it that much “better”.


#33

Fair enough: recently. And yes, Russia has all kinds of reasons to be sore about American interference during the Yeltsin era.


#34

and keep in mind thats how vietnam started; with military “advisors” from the US. just sayin.

edit/

Endless Conflict in Ukraine: The Forgotten from Donbass


#35

Trained troops are less likely to accidentally spark an incident than militia randos. A large part of military disciple is when not to fire.


#36

Some detail on who it is that the Canadians are training:


#37

beautiful, just beautiful. what could possibly go wrong?


#38

Now that’s something I’ll readily criticise NATO for. They shouldn’t be going anywhere near those fascist scumbags, who are no better than Putin’s fascist troops in Donbass. Worse, Israel’s Likud government has also supplied them with weapons (or at least didn’t specify to the Ukrainian military that this neo-Nazi unit couldn’t use them).

The lessons of history mean nothing to some people (especially if their maintaining their power and cash flow depends on it).


#39

Max Blumenthal is a questionable source, and from the talk page archives on the Wikipedia page, I think thee’s been some manipulation, so I’d take that with a grain of salt too.


#40

I agree about Blumenthal, but the basics check out from other, more reputable sources. The real problem is that the Ukrainian military hasn’t kicked out this creepy unit (I’d say clean house, but the unit seems rotten from top to bottom).

For all that I deplore Russia’s expansionist agenda in Ukraine and recognise the value of NATO in discouraging it, there is a nasty right-wing element in the country. Too many Ukrainians still romanticise the Hiwis, ULA, and other wartime Nazi collaborator units that weren’t simply anti-Stalinist/anti-Russian but that also embraced the Reich’s ideology and programme of genocide. Unfortunately that attitude has seeped into certain elements in modern Ukraine’s military and politics.


#41

I used the Max tweet because of the Canadian link; you can find plenty of other sources re: Azov. They aren’t secret.