Ukraine asks Canada to continue training troops to oppose Russia's invasive bullshit


#1

Originally published at: https://boingboing.net/2018/12/05/ukraine-asks-canada-to-continu.html


#2

I wish Canada would stop making the good ole’ USA look like shit.

PS. Go Canada!


#3

I guess people are more comfortable in lending military aid to one party in a conflict when they are separated from it by a large ocean.

One does not need to whitewash Russia’s authoritarian issues, to be irritated by what the OP is saying, and in particular how he is saying it. What am I supposed to take away from this meticulously researched piece, that eschewed no effort to weigh the opinions of both USA Today and CAF press releases? The repetition of borderline jingoist russophobic tropes? The absolutely uncritical co-opting of NATO’s military policies? The silent abetting of the Ukranian government that, headed by another oligarch, disenfranchised most of its ethnic Russian population, does little at best to protect political opponents from far right terrorists, but courts those groups for votes, and imposes martial law conveniently before the presidential elections? What’s not to like?

It boggles my mind how more and more liberals are falling into this line of thinking. When I was younger, hawkish positions like that were the near exclusive domain of conservatives and right wingers. Liberals mostly seemed to aim for moderation and restraint, for the sake of all involved and adjacent. Times sure have changed.


#4

Of all the places to send US troops, you’d think training Ukrainians would be a better idea than the Mexican border. But yeah, that whole Papa Putin thing…


#5

That high-five with MBS probably sent Trump into an uncontrollable frenzy of jealousy.


#6

There’s nothing much for American, Canadian and European liberals to root for about any right-wing nationalist kleptocratic mafiya regime that promotes and write into law all manners of bigotry and tramples on press and creative freedoms (this includes the current one in Washington, DC). I think we can agree that it would take several Clorox factories’ worth of bleach to come close to “whitewashing” Putin’s regime.

The governance of Russia and Ukraine could be exactly the same in that regard, but (generously accepting that proposition) at the moment only one of those regimes has an underlying doctrine of territorial expansion (one that it’s been carrying out with the help of “vacationing” troops), only one of them has been meddling in elections in favour of demagogues and promoting disunity and spreading disinformation in the West, and only one of them has been murdering political opponents on foreign soil. That’s why Russia worries Western liberals a bit more than Ukraine, which seems content to keep its own right-wing awfulness within its borders.

NATO’s core military policy is the same as it was: an attack on a member nation-state is an attack on all. Ukraine is a partner country and aspiring member, and Putin is being sneaky with his “Little Green Men” helping the totally freedom-loving and liberal separatists in Donbass, (partially to make sure that Ukraine doesn’t become a full member like the Baltics have). So the continuation of a training mission isn’t out of line with or “co-opting” that policy.

Privyet, new comrade of BoingBoing! We were getting so impatient waiting for you to show up in this topic.

Liberals in the West don’t want conflict with Russia; they just don’t want it spreading its craptastic policies (AKA “Russian Greatness”) abroad directly or indirectly. I know the kids at the IRA in St Petersburg just love things like anti-LGBT laws, chilling intimidation of local journalists, imprisonment of political opponents, and ultra-nationalism, but kindly keep them within your own borders.


#7

Yes, pretty weird to want conflict with Russia. But anything to blame Trump and Putin.


#8

Velcome to boing boing, new comrade!

Is good, da?


#9

Well keep in mind we’re talking about Canadians helping to train Ukrainians to defend their own territory from Russian invasion, not helping to overthrow a sovereign government or lending support to one side in a civil war or sending troops into a country that didn’t explicitly ask for them. So not exactly on par with what’s going down in Yemen or Syria or the last couple invasions of Iraq.


#10

If you don’t want conflict then why suggest making Ukarine a Nato member? That’s sure way to get it. BTW - There’s enough crap policies to go around.


#11

Actually…

It ain’t just Russians on the anti-Ukraine side.

It’s a civil war that both Russia and NATO have been meddling in for years.


#12

The Ukrainian government suggested that the country become a member, not I. Being a member nation of a defensive alliance isn’t a declaration of war, even if Putin is butthurt that most of Russia’s former territories and client states bordering the West want to join it instead of being part of the glorious Russkii Mir.


#13

I mean good luck to e’m but Georgia had troops trained and tons of modern military equipment provided by the US and things did not exactly work out. In fact they got bulldozed, both figuratively and literally.


#14

The problem with U.S. meddling in Georgia mainly had to do with the fact that it was being conducted by the same neoCon bunglers (and their regular enabler, McCain) who brought us the “cakewalk” invasion and occupation of Iraq. Western Liberals were not involved in promoting that little spat between Russia and one of its former “republics”.


#15

How so? The US, Canada, Poland, and Lithuania are all training Ukrainians. The US is also providing quite a lot of material aid to Ukraine.

If I were Ukraine, I would say a big No-Thank-You to this. An American- or Canadian-trained Ukrainian military fits right into Russia’s playbook, and the value is dubious. Consider the track record for other American-trained militaries: Republic of South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Georgia. If Americans are coming to train your military, you might already be fucked.

Another problem with this is that by training the tiny Ukrainian military to use Western equipment and tactics, we give Russia a perfect laboratory to learn how to fight us. Witness: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/world-report/2014/04/04/russia-hacks-a-us-drone-in-crimea-as-cyberwarfare-has-gone-wireless


#16

Let’s also not forget it’s a civil war that has it’s roots in genocidal Russian meddling.
Well, Soviet Russia specifically, when Stalin ordered the confiscation of all food in the Ukraine creating a famine that literally decimated the population between 1932 and 1933 - many estimates of the death toll sit around the 6-7 million mark. In a country that had a population of roughly 70-80 million.
Entire towns and villages were wiped out in the hardest hit areas, and ethnic Russians were brought in to repopulate parts of the country.
The surviving Ukranians understandably resented the shit out that particular grain of salt in the wound.
It’s no coincidence most of the pro-Russian anti-Ukrainian Government strongholds of this war are those same areas. And that “protecting” ethnic Russians is the justification Putin’s given for Russia’s covert and overt support for the separatists.


#17

Right… every child able to read a map can see how imperialist Russia has, over the last three decades, again and again agressively expanded its sphere of influence into NATO territory. But it stops here!!!1111

only one of them has been meddling in elections in favour of demagogues and promoting disunity and spreading disinformation in the West, and only one of them has been murdering political opponents on foreign soil. That’s why Russia worries Western liberals a bit more than Ukraine, which seems content to keep its own right-wing awfulness within its borders.

Yeah, I am totally down with governments like Ukraines, a shining star of freedom and democracy that keeps their shelling and sniping domestic. Let’s send them some tanks to help them, that will do everybody in the region a great service.

NATO’s core military policy is the same as it was: an attack on a member nation-state is an attack on all.

True, I am still deeply grateful for how NATO heroically bombed and broke up Yugoslavia, to selflessly combat the grave threat that this military juggernaut posed to its neighbors. The NATO is such a peace loving neighborhood association it positively drives me to tears. When is the next bake sale? I’d like to support our heroic armed forces defending freedom and democracy against foreign evilcrats and murdercountries! Sign me up!

Ukraine is a partner country and aspiring member, and Putin is being sneaky with his “Little Green Men” helping the totally freedom-loving and liberal separatists in Donbass,

You must be right, people in Donbass who have been disenfranchised by their own government would not think of preferring to align with Russia, everybody saying so must be an authoritarian and right wing extremist. What definitely will help them is parading American troops around this powder keg. I am sure they are just waiting for that.

Liberals in the West don’t want conflict with Russia; they just don’t want it spreading its craptastic policies (AKA “Russian Greatness”) abroad directly or indirectly.

And “abroad” is every country we choose to defend from Evilrussias megalomanical dictatormuder fuckpolicies. No bias. Just honest-to-good freedomloving goodwishing spreading of love and peace.

I know the kids at the IRA in St Petersburg just love things like anti-LGBT laws, chilling intimidation of local journalists, imprisonment of political opponents, and ultra-nationalism, but kindly keep them within your own borders.

I of course agree anti LGBT laws are shit, but what is this accusing every dissenter of being part of some Russian organization? This whole thing undeniably has undertones of a McCarthian frenzy, from using expletives right in the headline of the OP to this trope of vilifying differing opinions as Russian bots. I’m not throwing myself in the breach for @eddycurrent here, I do not like Putin or Trump or their fans, but I would suggest you fawning NATO fanboys and -girls listen to yourselves every know and again, because this is downright scary.


#18

Canada is a member of NATO.
There wouldn’t be Canadian troops military advisors in the Ukraine if NATO wasn’t okay with them being there.
This is a subtle (in military terms) message to an adversary.


#19

The reason NATO and EU have expanded in East Europe is simple. Those countries know, first-hand, what it was like being under the Soviet boot (and in many cases, under the Russian thumb before the revolution), and they want none of that ever again.

Looking at this through a cold-war lens where the only players are NATO and Russia is a mistake (and one that Russia is actually encouraging). Rather, consider that countries such as Poland or the Baltic states have their own, valid national interests – and one of the most important of those is making sure they have reliable alliances that protect them from Russia.


#20

Thank you Canada, our friend!