AR500 is more expensive, and less elastic but harder and tougher. Both are sensitive to heat, and don’t hold an edge well. They are a bit brittle too, and sensitive to heat. AR400 is better suited for cold forming, though I believe they both are about the same when it comes to machining.
And neither are particularly good for tools, typically the most balanced hardened steel for hand tools of any kind would be O1. Cheap, low weight, hard to machine but much tougher than either of these steels.
From the spec sheets I saw seems like primarily carbon content. AR for abrasion resistant. 400 for the .4 carbon content, dont remember what metric was used. Ar500 should be very similar steel with a .5. And so on up the ladder.
Not in a cutting implement. Maybe in a pry bar or barrier. But abrasion resistance and resistance to machining or bullets is not what I’m primarily concerned with in an axe. And it it takes special equipment to sharpen. And ceases to be sharp in an emergency where I need sharpness, I’m kind of boned aren’t I.
It sounds good, very nice marketing. But yeah, sounds like nice marketing.
I disagree, only to the extent that I have literally built hundreds of rescue and emergency tools out of AR400 and they are serving their purposes very well. The firefighters with the FROST axe absolutely love them.
We’ve had no metal failures in the field. We’ve had failures in two places in hard use: chipped handle scales and the fusion welds we put on the top of the alloy pins on the FROST. We’ve fixed both re-engineered the design to make sure they don’t happen again.
But I’m not going to make wood chisels out of AR400.
Or a pocket knife.
Or anything that will ever need to be tapped…
Have you ever worked with AR400? In any capacity?
We obv use ceramic belts and diamond wheels to grind AR400 in the shop. But you can use a file or stone (or an angle grinder with an autobody flap wheel for that matter) to touch it up. I’ve used all of those.
I routinely use a hand file to remove burrs from it, and I’ve even POLISHED it to a high chrome finish using a 5 inch dynabrade and Mirka pads. (Although I don’t think I ever do that again…)
When we offer a D2 blade, what will you think?
If fire axes are your reference point then it very well may be an appropriate alloy. Fire axes and similar tools are more breach tools than cutting implements. Used more for prying and smashing that cutting and outdoorsy shit. If your emergency involves tearing off a car door. Or blasting through a wall. Then that is the sort of steal you want from what I understand.
I just don’t think you’re going all Walden/alive with it.
I get you are making axes relatively cheaply, but there’s no need to overhype the basic metallurgy of the material. You can have a great, well built axe made of AR400 - but it literally isn’t a tougher material by any metric.
I misread that as, “A good knife, a good axe or haircut…” Sounded reasonable to me.
Somebody asked about head weight. It’s about 1.75 pounds including the sheath, rivets and pins. I averaged the handle spline weight by its length so that’s the only real variable - maybe an ounce plus or minus.
Not trying to rain on anyone’s parade, not saying that a shovel will be a better survival tool, etc.
Just, I once saw this video about a/the Chinese military multipurpose shovel. The vid goes on for a long time, showing of features and functions of the shovel, some silly, some not; yes, it even has the bottle opener that every bloody multitool in existence has.
IMO the video is a fun yet corny experience that you might enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGdbbEZVHqw
Looks like a knock off of an earlier American model (I think it was the korean war or vietnam model that was damn near identical). Which comes from a long line of folding multipurpose entrenching tools.
Basic idea is a shovel that folds for storage and/or use as a pick/hoe/scoopything. The saw/cutting blades got added over time. With some of them being in the field adaptations. Even now most of them don’t come with a sharpened point or edge, cause safety. But its commonly added by the user.
The current US model seems to be the best. Most of the world (and all of NATO) adopting variations.
Stronger and lighter while folding smaller. The actual US military versions tend to be better than the knock offs or the plastic handled NATO models. But heavier and harder to come by.
Hmn, the Chinese shovel seems distinctly different though in the design of the main (and here only) hinge. The Chinese one has a prominent kind of sprocket wheel that adds some features to the tool, such as a nail puller/ leverage point and a wire cutter.
I am currently seeing this more clearly in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwR0KKXmItg&index=193&list=WL
Which -strangely enough- tries to reproduce the original Chinese manufacturer’s video.
(Wow, what a fun little project we got going here… And that bloody shovel, this has been on my mind more than I would care to admit apparently)
Like I said the Chinese one looks near identical to a Airforce/National Guard issued shovel my grandfather picked up some time between the late 50’s and the early 70’s in terms of feature set. Though the Swiss army bits are better integrated. Like instead of “hey lets weld on a hammer head to it” the back end of the shovel simply has a flat, thickened portion to it over the shank that functions as a hammer head. And there’s no can opener because this:
Lived everywhere
That said I’ve also run into Chinese ones at swap meets and surplus stores. Not as good as the modern entrenchment tool in my opinion. Flimsier, heavier, rustier. Which goes for most of the older style ones.
Work smarter, not harder.
As a former Scout, if you ever need to do a back-country amputation, that looks like just the tool…Be Prepared!
Having used both … the black all-metal one is fux0ringly HORRIBLE to use. I much prefer to lug the greater weight of the WWII-era wooden handled one because although it’s still objectively bad as a spade, at least it has some leverage and you can actually dig a decent hole with it.
I’ve had exactly the opposite issue. I’ve dug many a hole with the modern one. The old school ones work, but more difficult to keep around. And those wood handles are prone to breakage.
I have busted more shovel and rake handles than I care to admit.
If I think about it, I won’t do it. But if my mind wanders… <snap> OW MY BACK! Consequently tools I build myself have absurdly sturdy handles.
But really it’s a user issue. Any lever can be broken. I’m just too careless.
I take it you are a regular customer at the local hardware store, then.
I mean, it looks okay, but I don’t trust the speed holes in the head, for one, and I think the all-in-one form factor is more of a bug than a feature. I grew up on a farm where we heated the house with a wood-burning stove so I’ve felled a lot of trees and split a lot of wood. I think I’d much rather have a very solid axe and some other separate tools than something like this. You can also get the same set of tools without the all-in-one form factor for much less than what this costs.
I don’t claim that bad stuff happens to me more often than others - it’s more that I find more ways to happen to bad stuff. I actually found a way to get severe hypothermia in 105°F heat.
Right, so I’m the kind of guy who found a way to not get hypothermia while camping when I got hit by a freak snow storm and below-freezing temperatures when the gear I’d packed was meant for, at best, fall temperatures, so I don’t know how that “boast” is supposed to inspire confidence…
I’m sure the “speed holes” in the head aren’t going to be doing it any favors, either. Also, there are applications that warrant a heavy axe head, and applications that warrant a lighter one, but I can’t think of any that require a head that is any lighter than that of a generic single-bit axe. A crazy lightweight head is actually going to make felling a tree or delimbing something more work, not less. You might as well be trying to fell a tree with a machete–technically possible, but entirely too much work to be practical, especially in a situation where you need to be concerned about conserving energy and water.
