Venezuela: 'After being promised paradise we are living in a nightmare.'

Maybe the solution then isn’t a revolutionary government. Revolutionary governments have a nasty habit of being lead by egotistical folks with a god complex and a desire to be the supreme ruler for life. These do not make for people who can establish a healthy political culture that thrashes out ideas and works on them. They instead make for people who use roll up all government power into the executive, then proceed to use the power of the state to try and smash the opposition. Predictably, when this happens only right wing political parties have any capacity for resistance, and you are left with a psychotic leftist statist party that has exiled their saner leftist counterparts. They are not good decision makers. The road to dealing with your oligarchy is boring, long, and never finished.

Many liberal democracies have arisen, and they all had to deal with their oligarchs. The successful ones dealt with them through a boring and protracted campaign of creating a stable political system and establishing rule by law. The work is never done and you will be fighting oligarchs from now until then end of time, but it works. Boring, I know.

That simply isn’t true. Lots of leftist revolutions have had success in relieving issues with basic necessities. Where revolutionary governments fail is that they relieve poverty by cannibalizing their own infrastructure and accumulated resources. Even this might not be such a bad thing if they were building anything for the future. Unfortunately, leftist revolutionary governments that have rolled up all of the power of the state into the executive and the party are essentially worthless at anything approaching sane economic investment for the future. Chavez’s party is absolutely no exception. There isn’t a whole lot of rational talk about how to best build Venezuela into a sustainable economic power that competes internationally going on in the Chavez camp. The only real difference is that Venezuela can cannibalize its infrastructure for longer than most such governments. It isn’t building anything stable. It is doing the opposite in fact. It is tearing down all attempts to build viable long term infrastructure.

You can pose the question, but until you have an answer, following in the footsteps of every single revolutionary leftist government without even a vague attempt to do something even a little different is pretty stupid and gives you predictable results. Not only do you fail to solve any underlying problems in your economy and cannibalize your infrastructure, but you also ruin your political system for the next couple of decades. Great job.

Personally, if I had a magic wand, a pile of oil money, and a mandate, instead of collapsing all power in the country into executive branch and into the party, I would use my oil wealth to take care of basic necessities, build infrastructure, and build a functional political system that can handle future challenges. I would build better separations of powers to try and root out corruption and implement rule of law. I would actively encourage small businesses and creating a friendly environment for economic activity while whittling away at the oligarch. You can help your least well off members while still creating a atmosphere where normal activity can continue, as the Scandinavians have so thoroughly shown us. When my term was up, I would set a good example and leave instead of trying to use all of my political power and the state to last forever. Then again, I am not a megalomaniac who thinks that I and only I have the wisdom to rule. In fact, I would probably spend a lot of time second guessing myself and wondering if I am fucking up. Yeah, I would be a pretty bad revolutionary leftist government. The best I could ever hope for would be being a competent administrator who left the country better off than when I started. Boring, I know, but that is good boring vs “oh look, another revolutionary leftist government crashed their economy and ruined their political system for the next couple of decades” boringly predictable.

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That would be a start. Using American politics as a framework to evaluate Latin American current social and politic standings is wrong. So wrong.

Little late to the party but a lot of the photos coming out of Venezuela are fake…

http://www.policymic.com/articles/82817/these-photos-being-shared-from-venezuela-are-fake

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So don’t have one. Ever heard of “reform”? WOrks much better.

Maybe you need to attempt to understand the forces that are ripping apart your country right now. The US government will go to almost any length to prevent a functioning socialist state from existing south of the border. In the white budget $5million has been allocated to sow unrest in your country. What do you think the black budget has allocated?

You have to ask cui bono. Who benefits from a lack of staple foods in Venezuela? Who benefits from civil unrest? Until you start to realize that its not the socialist government by itself that is causing problems like food shortages and the other problems you are experiencing you will just be a pawn.

The truth is that the only way for your nation to not be a pawn of the US is for the Maduro government to succeed. That’s because your alternative, the right wing, is already a complete pawn of the US. Wake up.

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Funny, “not really free markets” is another excuse mentioned often. I would add that most progressives aren’t “communists” or even socialists for that matter. Not that you’re not just being ridiculous.

I feel for your country. Being a perpetual pawn of the US cannot be fun. There’s just no happy answer for you: perhaps things will settle down somewhat if Maduro is ousted, but what’s coming next? Neoliberal fascism, with mass poverty. Perhaps that is better.

Then again, there’s no happy answer for us either. Either we get corrupt party 1 or corrupt party 2.

Well, never. Sorry, but your videos and posts come across as agenda driven to me. In other words they remind me of a lot of similar pieces that just don’t smell right.

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Right, because the right wing in Venezuela, unlike the right wing in every other nation on earth, consists of peace-loving, gentle folk who love civil rights and don’t employ death squads and economic terrorism to further their ends.

We’re not using American politics as a framework for anything. Socialism, liberalism, neoliberalism, fascism, these are political ideologies that exist the world over. Sure Venezuela has its particular flavors, but its all basically the same.

The fact is that the poor and disenfranchised in Venezuela have always been SOL. Under Chavez/Maduro they’ve done a bit better. Now your middle and upper class types are suffering a bit too so we get to hear about it on BB. The fact is you speak English, you have access to computers, and are clearly educated. You will do fine, either under Maduro or Lopez or whoever. Right now you are being mildly squeezed. Who is doing the squeezing? Ask yourself who benefits from you being upset. Ask yourself who benefits from inflation, un-stocked shelves and unhappy citizens. Then you might start to understand who is pulling the strings and towards what ends.

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What you are missing here is that business interests will actively take short term hits in order to oust a government they dislike. The same way that a corporation will close a profitable factory to stop a unionization drive, corporate interests have learned how to put pressure where its needed in order to derive the political outcomes they desire.

There are reasons that most socialist experiments fail. The main one being the violent and vicious response from both internal and external corporate interests. The other being the one you identify.

The thing that is missing from these discussions is that things aren’t always what they seem. Its not easy to pick apart the forces that are working in the background. Some forces will work with any “side” in a conflict. Others won’t. Some will change sides depending on which way the wind blows. What is obvious is that money has trumped every political system humanity has ever devised. Economic power has utterly eclipsed political power in Venezuela as well as the USA.

Neoliberalism is the triumph of economic forces over political forces, ensuring the subservience of the latter to the former every time. That’s why, no matter who gets elected, certain things never change.

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This is a phenomenon that is happening in both sides, And I will call it: “People that doesn’t verify their damn sources”

Heck, if it happens to Diario El País of Spain, to professional journalists, it can happen to civilians. It happened to George Ciccariello Maher, ultra-left-wing academic, when he retwetted this picture, that was advertised as one of 2014. But, as it turned out, it wasn’t: It was from 2004.

It happened to Al-Jazeera, where a picture from a 2009 chavista demonstration was posted intended (apparently, unverified) to show a recent concentration. The Pepsi-Cola landmark that can be appreciated in the background was dismantled by order of the government in 2010.

You haven’t proved how it is happening on both sides…

Boy you do sound patronizing and condescending…

Is this your way to tell me that you are more “informed” than me about the social and political development of my own country?

Source please.

The Venezuelan food importers, friend of Maduro and chavismo, known as bolichicos , or boligarchs?

More condescending and patronizing loony-talk.

The truth is that Maduro’s government is a complete an utter failure, and even people within chavismo are starting to catch. You, the one that has never been here, are the one that need to wake up.

I certainly don’t care about what you feel or not feel about my country. Just jibber-jabber in my ears.

Again, define “Venezuelan right wing”, explain what that is. And please, use sources. Talk me about the social context.

Uh, yes, you are. You are trying to apply the same preconceptions and prejudices you have (real or not real, is not up to me to judge) about the American right, and translating them to what you call the Venezuelan right. Wishful thinking applied to political analysis.

In a system and model that is not sustainable. We are watching the end of the good days now.

More condescending and patronizing loony talk, wild innuendos, and no evidence. Boring.

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Actually, I did. I think you haven’t read my reply properly…

I did you posted one photo of protest that was addressed in the links I posted.
And one retraction. essentially,
The vast majority of the photos posted we posted to put emphasis on brutal actions against protesters. By sheer weight of the photos and the reactions they are trying to elicit it seems more likely there is a systematic disinformation campaign from the anti government side, And one bad post doesn’t make this an equal exchange,
So I still find it very suspect,

I see, so food shortages help food importers, and food shortages that destabilize the government help the government. Gotcha.

Actually, your one-sided lack of admission that there are right wing forces fomenting unrest and insurrection is the real loony talk. Its only condescending if its not true. Keeping your head in the sand is loony talk. And believe me, I know the history of MY country, and how it supports central and south american plutocracy via things like economic terrorism, death squads, coup d’etats, etc., etc.

I never claimed Maduro’s government is some kind of huge success. You guys keep putting words in my mouth. But to deny what he is up against – the extremely powerful right wing, backed by the CIA, soft and hard US power, and to pretend that the failures of his government have nothing to do with the immense pressures being placed on it by these powers, is seriously deluded.

My guess is that you would be happy to have the neoliberal order reimposed on Venezuela. You are clearly part of the privileged class. And that order will make sure people like you don’t ever experience food shortages or other negative experiences, as long as you make sure they stay in power.

I see, so you have no idea what I’m talking about. Once again, you are the one engaging in blind, “loony” talk.

Here are some quotes from the document I linked above:

“A leaked document from November of 2013 shows that the US Agency for International Development (USAID) collaborated with the Colombian government and Venezuelan opposition leaders to destabilize Venezuela and stoke massive protests. The document, obtained by journalist and attorney Eva Golinger, was the product of a June 2013 meeting between US-based FTI Consulting, the Colombian Fundación Centro de Pensamiento Primero Colombia (Centre for Thought Foundation of Colombia First), and Fundación Internacionalismo Democratico (Democratic Internationalism Foundation). The third tactic outlined in the 15-point strategy document openly called for sabotage…”

“The charismatic opposition leader, Leopoldo Lopez, has succeeded in uniting the country’s indignant citizens behind him. Lopez is the former mayor of Caracas’ Chacao municipality in 2008, but was banned from running for future elections until 2014 amid allegations of misusing public funds. The Inter-American Court on Human Rights ruled in favor of Lopez and said he could run, but the Venezuelan government vowed that even if he won election, he wouldn’t be allowed to serve. Now in the wake of mass protests, Lopez has even taken to Twitter, taunting the government to arrest him. However, there is more to Lopez than meets the eye.”

“Emails released by Wikileaks as part of the Global Intelligence Files reveal that Lopez has ties to and has met with corrupt, neoliberal regime leaders like Colombia’s Alvaro Uribe, Brazil’s Fernando Cardoso, and the sketchy Paraguayan Congress. In 2011, Lopez met with Uribe to court his support in his efforts to unseat Chavez. While Uribe was president, he maintained a friendly relationship with George W. Bush, and was later embroiled in scandal when it was found that he used his family farm to train death squads. He also used the DAS – Colombia’s domestic intelligence entity – to spy on his own citizens, and fed that information to death squad leaders.”


You can continue to pretend there isn’t an organized right wing opposition that is spinning your country for their own benefit. I’m not really sure how that helps you, but there it is.

And think I asked for a source, not an article in a fringe and biased site as that one.

BTW, from what I’ve seen in the article, the supposed “smoking gun” are just three pages of a “supposed” document from a “supposed” conspiracy, and a video from Eva Golinger, someone with close ties with the chavista government.

Right. Quite solid.

If I had time, I would explain you how these people make money, huge amounts of money, just by importing food, that is later let rot in the docks. But hey, I’m not in the mood to waste my time trying to make you understand the details of Pudreval, as it was called it in the press.

So my lack of admission is some sort of admission? Ah, argument from ignorance fallacy… Sooo clever.

But you don’t know the history of my country. Past, or current.

Dear, the deluded part is you ignoring that both the banks, [and a major Venezuelan tycoon][1] are supporting him. If he is “on the verge of being overthrown by the CIA”, that seems like a very odd move, from those people.

[1]: http://www.correodelorinoco.gob.ve/politica/empresario-gustavo-cisneros-manifesto-su-apoyo-al-presidente-maduro-y-paz-venezuela/[quote=“Ygret, post:83, topic:23627”]
My guess is that you would be happy to have the neoliberal order reimposed on Venezuela. You are clearly part of the privileged class
[/quote]

Oh yeah, sure. I’m the wealthy son of two teachers, that voted for Chavez constitution back in 1999, and in other occasions as well, at the beginning of his tenure. My wealthy father worked as a teacher for more than thirty years in the public sector. They both came out in the 1970’s from the wealthiest barrio of all, Lídice, near Manicomio.

Also, I worked for the largest non-profit in country, Fe y Alegría, earning a little bit more than the minimum wage, teaching computer literacy to teacher working in poor areas. You know, because my large and vast wealth made it unnecessary (perhaps that’s why I used public transportation everyday, my ferrari got busted)

See, we are just a bunch of tycoons.

BTW, this must have been the funniest and most deluded Strawman fallacy I’ve seen in a while.

And you can continue to pretend that you know something about my country, or me. But that will not make it so.

Somebody mentioned the naif problem with Boing Boing when it comes to these things, but it looks like it was unceremoniously deleted. There’s a weird hippy activism thing. A thing that gets embarrassing when shit goes ugly. SEE EGYPT and boing boing’s WHOOPS!!! moments there… as the “oppressors” starting getting murdered and tortured by the “good guys”… another “told you so” moment…

Sometimes I think Corey is the only one with a well functioning compass when it comes to politics. Also, let me state that I still LOVE Boing Boing for all the other wonderful things.

Anyway, time and time again, when you see both sides of congress and the MSM in agreement bleating about some other government’s behavior you should get to reading because there’s almost surely much more to the story and an ideological agenda at work.

The same thing happened in here with Egypt and BB ended up accidentally supporting a military coup and all the death and violence that has come with it. Whoops.

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Multinational business interest and middle class domestic business interests are two different things, but you wouldn’t know that from Chavez’s ilk and there highly traditional and hilariously incompetent handling of the economy. Again, Venezuela doesn’t need multinationals, it has piles of oil money just sitting there and can do its own internal investment. It DOES need an internal economy run by the middle class. They need people who, when they have a few bucks saved away feel comfortable risking early retirement to opening up a restaurant or car wash or market. The alternative is to run your infrastructure into the ground, run the entire population on base level subsistence with oil money, and then suffer collapse of even subsistence level existence if the oil money ever gets cut off.

Leftist revolutionary governments are hilariously incompetent when it comes to dealing with their own internal economy. Their problem is that after they roll all the power of the state and the party into the executive, as Chavez did, you murder (hopefully figuratively) all sane moderating forces that would point out the obvious folly of crushing middle class business. The only people who can survive in such a political environment are rabid party fanatics and rabid right wing fanatics. This is the boringly predictable path that you wander down when a leftist (or rightist) government seizes all political control and merges the party, the state, and the executive into one entity, as Chavez. You utterly fuck your country’s ability to have sane political actors. The poor fuckers in the middle, the people, then get to pick between murderous oligarchs who promise some sliver economic sanity (after taking their hefty cut of course), or insane leftist who have the economic sense of a rock.

Shocker, it is a castrafuck.

No, it really isn’t that hard. Yes, there are outside forces at work, but they have nothing to do with the actions of Chavez’s party. What Chavez did to his country’s government wasn’t an outside force. He rolled up the power of the government into the executive, rolled the party into the state, and then went about ensuring that only right wing reactionaries can survive in the brutal political climate. He then cracked out a well worn copy of “how to crash an economy with your revolutionary leftist government” and followed it literally word for word without deviation and with predictable results. You can point to all the mean people who ruined his plans, but for fucks sake, this has happened literally dozens of times. At some point you either need to accept that outside forces are not your problem, or that they are going to crush you every single time. Either way, the solution is to try something new rather than smash your head against the same well worn spot. It is gross incompetence and stupidity to run screaming over the cliff to join the pile of bodies of others who have run down that same path.

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Regarding the cover image: they are burning empty cake boxes. Cake boxes.

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