Originally published at: http://boingboing.net/2016/11/25/wells-fargo-says-that-its-cust.html
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Now that takes balls.
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Signatures are still a stupid way to identify a person. If I have to sign something I don’t like, I scrawl something that looks as fake as possible, just in case I ever feel like saying “Nope, that’s not my signature”.
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I know someone that refused to sign his bank cards (after getting ripped off once), and instead wrote “ASK FOR ID” on the signature strip.
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This is some real “Alice Through the Looking Glass” BS.
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One of those clever-sounding plans that doesn’t work in practice. It doesn’t prevent cloned cards, and the purchases aren’t generally going to be in areas where you’d have someone asking for ID.
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Supported by the party of personal responsibiity.
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Stumpf, Drumpf; those lizard men are getting lazy with surmanes.
Also, fuck them.
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“Wells Fargo says that its customers gave up right to sue by having their signatures forged”
No, they’re not. Wells Fargo says that by signing up for their actual non-fraduluent accounts they gave up the right to sue for things including having their signatures forged and used to open up fraudulent accounts. They’re not saying that the fraudulent signatures bind the victims to a non-arbitration agreement.
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@Phrenological is right.
As a cashier, the amount of time I spent looking either the back of your card or signature is quantified as being, “as little as possible” (AKA, not at goddamn all for purchases under $500.)
Why? It’s not my job. What am I, a handwriting expert? I was never told to do it, and the fact is that none of our agreements with the PCI required us to. In fact, if we see “SEE ID” we’re actually allowed by our agreement with the PCI to decline the card in lieu of a signature, as is USPS policy. I never did, because of the Y-Principle: Why bother? Meanwhile, if there is a signature on the card, (including a signature that a thief slapped on there after “SEE ID”) we’re required to accept it and CANNOT require ID, again, per our agreement with the PCI. Something customers never understood was that we have an agreement with the credit card company, and you have a completely separate agreement with them. We don’t have any kind of agreement with you.
Sorry for the long rant, but it was always irritating to have a customer say, “You didn’t ask for my ID.” I’m not supposed to, and anyone who does is technically violating the card company agreement on behalf of the store. Of course, I’ve asked for ID precisely once: From a customer who didn’t have it on them and got pissed when I refused to swipe their card. After that my manager filled me in and told me, “He’s the asshole here, but don’t ask people for ID anymore.”
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I’m honestly not sure that you can construct a theory more magnificently counter to basically all of contract law than this one.
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They are at this point. The best way in 2016 America would be through strong crypto, but things like public-key encryption are still a big leap for the vast majority of people and corporations and legislators.
You’re correct, and that’s probably how Wells Fargo will defend itself here. The best counter-argument to be made by the customers is that by engaging in systematic and large-scale forgery Wells Fargo exhibited a blatant, active, and on-going contempt for the concept of any signature on one of their documents signalling agreement.
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Supported by almost all of one part and half of the other, really.
The problem with contract law is that it sometimes isn’t to the bigger party’s advantage.
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Yup. It places an unfair burden upon the staff and it does no good, there is no liability created or enforced and is one of those “lifehacks” repeated in the public consciousness but never fully digested for risk, reward, and efficacy.
Agreed, beyond my quip it would definitely require Dem support to break the mandatory arb curse placed upon us all.
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Breakfast of Champions, IIRC.
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Good luck passing that with a quarter of the Legislative and breaking the White House’s veto.
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I barely have expectations among those with a modicum of consumer protection.
I wonder, has Warren made any statements about the practice?
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Score! I just looked at my mortgage, and it turns out that “John Stumpf” co-signed! Do you think I should tell him, or let him find out from the bank when they stop getting their payments?
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To counter Wells Fargo’s claim I can’t sue, I would like to present to the court a settlement signed with something like John Stumpf’s signature agreeing to settle the case with me for 10 million dollars.
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