What if we limited the number of white men in film and TV?

[daneel]

I’d just like to note how not mentioning the dreaded P word has prevented any unproductive arguments in this thread.

[milliefink]

@CLamb

Personally, I find it appalling how mammals dominate the casts of film and TV. It seems like Bill and Coo was the only movie defying this convention.

Yeah, I always have trouble finding insect comedy. And mollusk dramas or fish soap operas? Forget it!

[daneel]

@Brainspore

Making Tony Stark black would be a bigger departure from canon since being a “privileged billionaire playboy who takes his position in society for granted” is central to his character and there are almost no black people who fit that description. (Almost no black billionaires at all for that matter.)

Is this a call for Oprah to play Iron Man?

[marilove]

Superhero comic book characters by their very nature are fluid and have been since their creation. The canon and stories change ALL. THE. TIME. New characters are added and old characters are updated or modernized and their stories are fiddled with (sometimes subtly, sometimes not) ALL. THE. TIME.

We’re talking about superhero comic book characters and story lines!

I’m newly into comic books and I’ve been doing a LOT of researching (I get obsessed with shit) and one of the most overwhelming parts of it is the ever-changing story lines and characters!

[marilove]

Who is “her”?

[chgoliz]

@daneel

If women want to win more best director Oscars, they’ll just have to get out there and create and make more films that appeal to conservative old white guys.

I know it was a joke, but there’s also the sad reality that proves your point: the first female director in the history of the Academy Awards to win an Oscar, Kathryn Bigelow, did so for “The Hurt Locker”.

[marilove]

@Brainspore

Making Tony Stark black would be a bigger departure from canon since being a “privileged billionaire playboy who takes his position in society for granted” is central to his character and there are almost no black people who fit that description. (Almost no black billionaires at all for that matter.)

A black or other person of color billionaire superhero would make for a great character, though! Maybe something similar to Batman, with a mix of Iron Man, but with an even richer back story. How did they become a billionaire? How was their home life growing up? Where did they grow up? Maybe someone from a developing or “third-world country” who moves to the states, makes it big, and becomes a superhero? Okay these are all silly ruminations, don’t take them seriously, but also don’t steal my ideas!

[Aloisius]

@marilove

Who is “her”?

I believe you. You are the one who said that WHITE MEN are dominating “us.” Hollywood is run by largely by Jewish men. In the context of what films and television shows get produced, it isn’t white men who are deciding.

I’m just curious. Do you think the people who decide what movies and television shows are produced are racist and sexist and are trying to dominate you? Just curious how far you’re willing to go with this.

[Brainspore]

That could make a good character, just a different kind of character. It’s harder to sell the idea of an African-American billionaire as a spoiled brat since there are only two in existence (Oprah and Michael Jordan) and they both worked their butts off to get to where they are.

I once had a discussion with someone who thought that Superman’s race (or rather his appearance/skin tone since he’s not technically human) wasn’t relevant to his identity. I had to remind them that at the time the comic was written Kansas was a Jim Crow state where an African-American (or dark-skinned Kryptonian) would have grown up with a very different impression about what “Truth, Justice and the American Way” meant.

[milliefink]

@marilove

No one has said this or even implied this straw man. This isn’t about you, stop taking things so personally.

Right? I don’t get why so many white people take critique of a white supremacist social order as criticism of them personally. (I know, I know, #notalletc., etc. But, still)

[nungesser]

Sure. But I’m talking about movies that take their plots nearly directly from classic comics – before the canon was fiddled with pretty dramatically.

But hey, sure, let’s cast anyone as anything. I guess it doesn’t really matter.

[marilove]

I was definitely over-simplifying to make a point, although I think we both groked that the person we’re both speaking to is not really arguing in good faith and is attempting to twist my words to make it seem like I’m the racist one.

A quick breakdown of statistics (2010) is interesting. It appears that while Jewish men do have a larger representation as producers and executives, that’s really about the only place, and I still wouldn’t say they “dominate”. They definitely don’t have a larger representation as actors/actresses. I’m not sure about writers.

Rick Sanchez says Jews control the media. Is that true?

[milliefink]

@Aloisius

Hollywood is run by largely by Jewish men. In the context of what films and television shows get produced, it isn’t white men who are deciding.

So you’re saying they’re not, as I understand it, Ashkenazi? I mean, so MANY Jewish people in the U.S. are also white…

[Brainspore]

@nungesser

But I’m talking about movies that take their plots nearly directly from classic comics – before the canon was fiddled with pretty dramatically.

I don’t think there ever was a period of comics when they weren’t constantly fiddling with the canon. Heck, the Incredible Hulk’s color changed from gray to green by the second issue.

[Aloisius]

@milliefink

So you’re saying they’re not, as I understand it, Ashkenazi? I mean, so MANY Jewish people in the U.S. are also white…

It really doesn’t matter if they are. We are judged as Jewish first. That’s how antisemitism works.

[ChickieD]

When I was in college, I fell in love with television production. I volunteered A LOT at our little TV production outfit. I even produced a TV show my junior year (which was a requirement of 40 hours per week volunteering).

I thought I wanted to be in TV production as my career. Except then I got to work on a few professional shoots with the professionals who were consulting with us. Wow, this is one male dominated field. It was only after I’d gotten a taste of that that I understood how difficult it would be to rise up in this field as a woman. There are a lot of technical hurdles to overcome to learn how to create for TV, and a lot of the nuts and bolts of production - from rigging up the lighting to fixing the cameras - are run by nerdy white guys. I started to see how much of television was the fantasy life of these not very socially adept men.

I think if you want to change storytelling, you should focus on training people of color and women to repair cameras, produce lighting design, understand sound engineering, and all of the ins and outs of make a tv show work. Because getting your script put into reality involves getting these people to make that script happen.

[milliefink]

@Aloisius

We are judged as Jewish first. That’s how antisemitism works.

I beg to differ. I’d bet a lot, in fact, that most Jewish Americans are almost always first “judged” as white people. That’s how the white supremacy they worked their way into works.

[Aloisius]

@marilove

I was definitely over-simplifying to make a point, although I think we
both groked that the person we’re both speaking to is not really arguing
in good faith and is attempting to twist my words to make it seem like
I’m the racist one.

A quick breakdown of statistics (2010) is interesting. It appears that while Jewish men do have a larger representation as producers and executives, that’s really about the only place, and I still wouldn’t say they “dominate”.

We run every major movie and television studio. We constitute the bulk of financiers, run SAG, run talent agencies, etc. There is no question that the tribe decides by and large what goes on television and what movies get the green light.

Maybe you were oversimplifying things. That’s why I asked for clarification. Do you think the people who decide what goes on television and what movies are made are dominating you? And by dominate, I mean, exercising control over. Are we oppressing you?

[Aloisius]

@milliefink

I beg to differ. I’d bet a lot, in fact, that most Jewish Americans are almost always first “judged” as white people. That’s how the white supremacy they worked their way into works.

I see. You’ve been Jewish a long time now have you? Here I thought I lived it. Didn’t realize I was part of the white supremacy.

Please do explain the Jewish experience to me.

[dobby]

@marilove

Diversity in class is also important, though,

I may be naive but I truly believe that most modern racism is more using race as a class identifier.
I have never seen gut level hate from a person born after say 1970-80 against anyone of color in the middle class or above like I have seen for the (any race) homeless or migrant workers.