Both DC and Marvel have their own specific “cinematic universes” that are very much inspired and based on the comic book mythos, but also somewhat separate from the comic books. In fact, both DC and Marvel started to create comic series that more closely matched the movie universes, not the other way around (Marvel’s Agent Coulson is a great example, as is the S.H.E.L.D. character, May…).
In fact, the X-Men movies series is actually owned by 20th Century Fox and not MCU, which is why you won’t ever see any sort of mention of “mutant” in any MCU movie or TV show. Also, for the new Avengers movie, 20th Century Fox and Marvel had to come to a specific agreement so that Marvel would be able to utilize Spider-man in the story.
The comic books themselves also have various “universes” where different story lines take place, often with wildly different story lines, and drastically changed characters.
For example:
And what about the Amalgam universe wherein they combined DC and Marvel characters to make all-new superheros! And this was in the mid-90’s!Amalgam Comics | Amalgam Database | Fandom
I am BRAND SPANKIN’ NEW to comic books and superhero comics specifically and even I know that the superhero canon has been “fiddled with” since the beginning of superhero comic books.
So um are you a superhero comic book fan or are you just talking out of your arse right now because the idea of making “traditionally” white superhero characters non-white makes you uncomfortable?? I normally don’t question nerd cred but come onnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
I will admit that this particular subset of this conversation is a bit over my head and I do not understand enough about how the Jewish race and culture interact with the larger society. No, I don’t feel that Jewish people are dominating or oppressing me. But I do feel that men and the male perspective as a whole dominates our culture and society. How those two subjects combine on this particular subject, I admit ignorance, but you have given me a lot of food for thought and I really appreciate it. If you have any particular resources you think might be interesting or terms I should look up, I’d be interested. Feel free to PM me or whatever is the equivalent on this here BBS if you want and feel comfortable doing so.
I don’t normally like to do the whole “I have (insert race or gender or religion) friends!” thing, but I DO have a really super awesome Jewish friend whom I may hit up to talk more about this… He’s really good at this intersectionality stuff. Again, thanks for the food for thought and I apologize for stepping into territory I clearly am not familiar enough with.
I’m not Jewish, and even if I were, I doubt I’d try to do that.
I’m not trying to step on your toes. All I’m saying is that among the Americans who look “white,” but are also Jewish, their whiteness is most often a far more evident, salient part of their identity to most of the people they encounter than is their Jewishness. Unless they have some way of immediately marking or announcing said Jewishness.
That’s why, if you were referring to the U.S. context, I find implausible your statement that we are “judged as Jewish first.” Surely most are in almost all situations perceived as “white” first?
I think the overall point should be made that gender and race – and economics! – should matter to a multidimensional character, because they matter to us real human beings. “White guy default mode” isn’t much fun.
I might dispute that because I don’t know if you’ve read Kanye West’s twitter recently but DAMN. But at that point we’re probably quibbling semantics…
…and now I have a vision of Kanye playing Iron Man and I don’t know how this could possibly be not amazing…
Well, I’m expressing my ignorant opinion that the original Tony Stark was caucasian (whose father, also a major part of the canon, is also shown as caucasian), for example, so casting the original Tony Stark as a black man would strike me as a little odd right off the bat. But I guess that makes me (a) racist and (b) a guy talking out my ass, so please, ignore my racist ass-talking.
Well, remember that this sort of thing happens to mixed-race individuals all the time. It’s a form of identity erasure and it’s not necessarily a positive thing as a whole, even if it can sometimes have positive results for individual people or circumstances. And, being perceived as white if you don’t personally identify as such can have negative impacts on individuals. I don’t personally know enough about this to really go into detail, but imagine if you identify as, say, black, and those you primary interact with on a day to day basis (family, friends) also identify as black, but you often get mistaken for a white person.
Just look at how our society deals with Obama, a mix-raced president who identifies as black.
But I guess that makes me (a) racist and (b) a guy talking out my ass, so please, ignore my racist ass-talking.
Your martyrdom is covered in straw.
I notice your lack of a response to my carefully thought-out response and points regarding the many different canon changes and alternate realities, too. How convenient for you. Additionally, @Brainspore already quite neatly addressed the Tony Stark issue, and I even replied to that.
NO, not every character’s race can be changed without making other changes to back story, but no one here is saying that, and several of us have actually made careful attempts to make that clear (including myself).
As I explained, I’m ignorant. I have nothing to respond to your points about, because I have no opinion on them. Your argument wins. You win. I am a fool who you have proven to be racist. Congrats.
Thanks, but I have no doubt the whitening process entails erasure, and other problems. I’m having trouble finding anywhere in this thread where I said the process is an entirely positive one.
Why do they need to know? (you should have just said “Oh you are right, let me fix that and checked off all the other options”)
Back to the topic - I suspect what would go a long way would be if Hollywood would stop trying to remake everything and just come out with some original content.
So you have no opinion and you’re ignorant and yet you spent how many comments trying to explain to us about a subject you have no opinion on with a tone that implied you had at least some sort of knowledge on the subject? With multiple replies, might I add, even after multiple people were like “Um, superhero canon is very flexible…”
I am a fool who you have proven to be racist.
I neither called you a fool nor a racist.
Why can’t people (mostly white men), when confronted with new ideas and ways of thinking that change their perspective and make it clear to them that they did not fully understand a certain subject, actually admit that they were wrong or ignorant, without also becoming a passive-aggressive martyr covered in straw in the process?
I am judged as Jewish first. It is the descriptor people use to refer to us when pointing us out. We are “that Jew” not “that white person.” A small number of us can pass, especially with plastic surgery, but most of us are easily identifiable as Jewish. We don’t need to bring it up.
You did not imply that, apologies if I made it seem as if you did. From previous discussions we’ve had in the past, I actually think you get that point very well which is why I brought it up. Sorry I wasn’t more clear about that.
No.
I’ll try this again, because you insist on keeping an argument going that I have withdrawn from, and insulting me while doing so.
I have absolutely no issue with any race or any creed or any gender being cast in any role. Go for it. It works well when done right: Nick Fury being a terrific example. The black Nick Fury is now canon. Awesome.
But I also do not have an issue with casting caucasian men in caucasian men’s roles without needlessly keeping a specific gender/race diversity quotient for the sake of doing so.
That is all. Please stop implying that having said that, it makes me ‘uncomfortable with making characters non-white’ and then mocking my ‘nerd cred’. In other words, lay off.
This is a little off-topic but that’s actually the point of Kanye West’s persona.
Kanye is way more self-aware about his status as a (newly) rich black man than you might think (in my opinion).
Kanye west as Iron Man would be INCREDIBLY subversive. And @Brainspore back to our discussion – I think subverting the whole “white rich playboy trope” could in fact be really awesome.
I think when speaking about this sort of subject, we need to remember that subverting norms and tropes is awesome and entertaining and also really really necessarily.
