Now you’re just back peddeling, and moving the goal posts (again). Are you aware that we can read the words you’ve already written?
But I also do not have an issue with casting caucasian men in caucasian men’s roles without needlessly keeping a specific gender/race diversity quotient for the sake of doing so.
For the “sake of doing so”?? Yeah. It’s not about “just for the sake of doing so”. At all. Wow. Talk about missing the point.
Also, the only reason I “mocked” your “nerd cred” was because you actually strongly stated MORE THAN ONCE that superhero canon is stagnant, which is utterly ridiculous and false and easily debunked. Which I did.
So you’re saying a person in the U.S. can’t be “white” and “Jewish” at the same time?
If so, I wonder what Karen Brodkin was going on about in her renowned book that I referenced above, or Eric Goldstein in this one?
And how often are white people ever pointed out as “that white person”? They’re usually seen as “normal,” not white, especially by other white peole. That’s the whole point of historically recent white racial formation, to be taken as “normal” and ordinary, instead of marked racially. As Toni Morrison put it, “American means white.”
Happens all the time around here. Then again when used as an identifying comment it rules out about 80% of the others that people are are in the group.
Poorly phrased. I’ll try yet again. Black Nick Fury is now the overwhelming canon. It’s what people picture when you say “Nick Fury”. Sam Jackson did such a great job of inhabiting the character that it’s surprising to moviegoers that he was once a white character. I’m AGREEING with you.
Nope. I was referring to the characters as they were originally created. You read the rest into my comments. Never once did I mean to state that canon is stagnant. I don’t believe that for one moment and I’m very sorry if you took that from anything I said. You seem to be trying very hard to paint me as a moron. Yes, I know you can read the words I’m typing. I wish you wouldn’t put your own words in my mouth as well.
I’m saying that we are identified as Jewish first and white second (assuming they are white - black and asian Jews are usually black/asian first).
The closest (imperfect) analogy I can think of is black men. They are black first and men second. If there is a group of all white women and one black guy and someone asked where Tracy was, they are more often to say, “the black one over there” instead of “the guy over there.” Works the same way for us Jews.
Totally going to bring up anecdotal evidence and my previously-stated Jewish friend and also another Jewish friend of mine. Both are male. Both are “obviously” Jewish. One of them is from Queens, NY, and has a pretty strong accent so it makes it even more “obvious”. Both are culturally Jewish rather than religiously so, though both do still practice some Jewish traditions in their own way.
The first friend I mentioned also happens to be deaf. We’ve had a few discussions about this before … first people see him as a dude with a big nose, and then they think, “Oh, maybe he’s Jewish? But he’s pretty white?” But for sure most people at least wonder “hey, Jewish or not?” even if they aren’t sure. And then when he starts to communicate, it quickly becomes obvious that he’s deaf. So then suddenly that’s the “thing” people notice about him above all else. This is also where intersectionality becomes important, because yes, he’s deaf, but he also grew up in an environment that encouraged his involvement and education within both the deaf and hearing communities, so he is an excellent lip reader, speaker, and writer.
(And this is where I could go on a tangent about lack of equal representation of disabled, or deaf, or blind, people etc, in tv and movies – and how, for example, deaf and blind folks are often represented by hearing and seeing actors/actresses, and what about tv, movie and other media accessibility for blind and deaf folks? “Equal representation” and “diversity” is far more complex than just race, gender and sexuality!)
My second friend has discussed how he has dealt with direct and sometimes very awful discrimination and bullying because he is Jewish and most people are immediately aware of that fact. He’s also white, but most people don’t see/notice that first at all. At most they might think “white Jewish person”. @Aloisius if this comment is out of line, just let me know.
And I directly addressed that, and pretty thoughtfully, too, with the various different worlds and variations of characters that diverge wildly from their original created canon but you continue to ignore that.
Sam Jackson did such a great job of inhabiting the character that it’s surprising to moviegoers that he was once a white character.
Why is it surprising? Why should it be surprising? Please explain.
In a worst-case scenario, WHICH HAS NOT HAPPENED, yes, it would be. I was speaking hypothetically. I used to work at an ad agency for a large corporation; every group photo had to follow specific ratios of race and gender: X percentage of African Americans, X percentage of women, etc. Gender and race are infinitely mutable when it comes to canon of fictional characters. I’m glad that smart filmmakers are making smart choices about them: yes, we’re getting the female Captain Marvel, which is awesome.
If it has not happened then why are you going on and on and on about it as if it’s a problem? Why are we not focusing on actual important things? Why are you derailing? This is explicit derailing, at this point.
Edit: After some quick research, I was totes wrong about Captain Marvel. Edited/Removed (I didn’t realize the character was written as a man first, cool!)
Because they don’t know the original comics, and only know Nick Fury as a badass black man. It’s hard to imagine Nick Fury otherwise, because Sam Jackson has made the character so thoroughly his own. It’s hard for me to imagine anyone else in the role. Seeing old comic art of Nick Fury as a white dude is as surprising as if they’d cast a female Nick Fury and you later found out that he was originally envisioned as a male.
I was responding, originally, to the post in question, which posed hypotheticals about ‘limiting the number of white men in film and TV’. I was responding with my own hypothetical situation, directly responding to comments in that article. Far from “derailing”, I was exactly on topic.
Is that because he’s black, or just because it’s hard to imagine anyone other than SLJ in the role? Is his blackness the defining quality of his performance?
How would anyone be surprised to learn that Nick Fury was previously written as a white man? Anyone who knows the history of race in our country (since we’re talking about American comics) should not be surprised about the fact that a character now played by a prominent black man was previously written on paper, in paper comics, as a white character (a rather “old” white character that’s been around for a long time, and even the most pedestrian superhero fan knows that at this point). “White character” was (and still is) the default for characters in general, especially well-written, fully fleshed out “bad ass” characters like Fury.
Thor is now female. It does not at all surprise me that Thor was previously written as a man. Because that was the default for such a character (and still often is).
“White washing” is a common thing. This is what happens when a character who was previously a POC is now suddenly white. This happens a lot (although less often now). So, no, it isn’t very surprising that Nick Fury was once written as a white man, and I question your sincerity when you imply that you were possibly surprised by that fact (were you? I’m going with…probably not).
DId you really take the question in the title at face value? Did you read the actual post in question? Why are you derailing with your own hypothetical, non-existent question based on your own made up reality that doesn’t actually exist? Why are you essentially playing “devil’s advocate”? You’re derailing. Pretty text-book, actually.
His Sam Jackson-ness is the defining quality of his performance. SLJ has that specific character type he plays better than anyone else, and Nick Fury is the coolest, smoothest, bad-assest version of that type. And he happens to be a black guy. Being black isn’t what makes him what he is.
It’s … an in-joke between the two of us and I think @OtherMichael is trying to see how long until Falcor shuts it down. That said, the song is terrible but the dresses are so pretty.
Given my previously-stated ignorance compared to yourself, yes, it was a surprise, since I wasn’t familiar with the source material. But now you’re questioning my sincerity, so hey, that’s fun!
I’m terribly sorry, once again, that you didn’t understand my original comments. It’s clear that I have a lot of learning to do. I’m not whitewashing anything. I’m not trying to derail anything. I posed a direct answer to comments from the original article – which, yes, I read. But I’m sure you’ll question my sincerity on that, too, yes?
