When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

[Wanderfound]

@AcerPlatanoides

collective noun for people who stand alone

I see a problem here…

[ficuswhisperer]

@Jilly

I braved my fear and clicked and there were no pictures of a very, hairy, scary tarantula

I actually meant to write as much before posting, but yeah, no big tarantula pics or anything at the linked article. I added an edit to that post.

Sorry for squicking you out before.

[Jilly]

@ficuswhisperer

Sorry for squicking you out before.

it’s okay. I’ve been squicked out by much worse. Like Donald Trump.

[anon37332521]

@Jilly

Before this conversation encourages anyone else to post pics of spiders,

I’ve been refraining. There’s an image on at least 2 old BBS threads that came to mind, when you mentioned your dislike for spiders. (I’m trying to be a good person; really I am.)

[Wanderfound]

@tropo

I’ve been refraining. There’s an image on at least 2 old BBS threads that came to mind, when you mentioned your dislike for spiders. (I’m trying to be a good person; really I am.)

Arachnothread

There are assorted Happy Mutants who really, really don’t like being unexpectedly faced with images of spiders and other arachnids. But there are also plenty of us who think that our webby friends are cute, cuddly, and altogether lovely. So, when you feel the urge to post some spidery goodness on another thread, don’t. Post it here and put a link to this in the original thread. [image]

[codinghorror]

@Jilly

While we often we talk about gender in terms of male and female, it’s the societal constructs commonly assigned to both that I’m discussing, not the fact that you have a penis and I have a vagina

True insofar as it goes, but testosterone and estrogen are both a hell of a drug. And starting around year 12 of your life you spend the rest of your existence just soaking it in, marinating in that crap.

Yeah, there is certainly variance around the mean, but it is a wee bit tougher to be collaborative when you’re juiced full of aggression drugs, 24/7. That’s all I’m saying.

I find aspects of these discussions frustrating, because I feel they go out of their way to avoid something that there is a hell of a lot of documented science on: namely, that gender is easily the biggest source of real, measurable, science & data backed differences between human beings that there is. Compare to: race, religion, etc all of which are essentially meaningless in comparison.

Gender of course is not destiny. Not by a long shot. But wiping the slate and pretending any given person could be interchangeably male or female with zero resulting difference in behavior, personality, etc is really hard for me to get behind.

[Wanderfound]

While I don’t disagree with what you’re saying in broad terms [1], I’m not seeing how it’s relevant to what @Jilly posted. She stated that she was discussing non-biological gender, not that biology was irrelevant.

Slightly mis-aimed response, or am I missing something?

[1] Although it is worth noting that psych research on gender differences has historically been very, very bad at distinguishing between the influences of biology and culture.

[codinghorror]

I was speaking to this point:

@Jilly

In particular, research shows that women are perceived as more cooperative and collaborative, and given negotiation research in the past 30 years, one would think that works in our favor

There’s a whoooole lot of subtext here around what being aggressive vs. cooperative can get you, which you can dig into at http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2010/01/a-rant-about-women/

@Jilly

To my point, here, however, one fella predictably said, “But I’m collaborative! And I’m male!” I’ve given iterations of this presentation numerous times at conferences, to classes, to co-workers. It always happens.

I would expect a dude to pipe up, aggressively, pointing out “hey I’m good at collaboration, damn it!”.

As Clay said:

This worry isn’t about psychology; I’m not concerned that women don’t engage in enough building of self-confidence or self-esteem. I’m worried about something much simpler: not enough women have what it takes to behave like arrogant self-aggrandizing jerks.

I wouldn’t say it is privilege in this instance, per se. Part of “not all men!” is that dudes just like to aggressively argue stuff. And, uh, point out how good they are at X, irrespective of whether they actually are. Because testosterone, because aggression, because assertion, because millions of years of biology.

[dave_b]

Spiders are arachnids not insects.

[dave_b]

Diasporia?
Explosion?
Crap party?

[Melizmatic]

Thank you for your consistent pedantry.

[Jilly]

@codinghorror

Gender of course is not destiny. Not by a long shot. But wiping the slate and pretending any given person could be interchangeably male or female with zero resulting difference in behavior, personality, etc is really hard for me to get behind.

Absolutely. The studies that have been conducted do indicate that men and women behave differently when negotiating. If you are really interested, see this meta-analysis – https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-a0038184.pdf.

But to be fair, I wasn’t suggesting that biology didn’t matter. Of course it does.

@codinghorror

I wouldn’t say it is privilege in this instance, per se. Part of “not all men!” is that dudes just like to aggressively argue stuff. And, uh, point out how good they are at X, irrespective of whether they actually are. Because testosterone, because aggression, because assertion, because millions of years of biology.

It is privilege because biology isn’t the ONLY factor.

[Marcos_El_Malo]

Negotiations are key. We have a spider TOS at my house. They can use any room, but they must stay out of beds, no exceptions. Webs that are old and that look abandoned may get removed if I’m feeling sufficiently motivated to clean the house. Certain areas are use-at-your-own-risk, such as in the bathroom.

[Melizmatic]

@Marcos_El_Malo

Negotiations are key.

I like your way of looking at it.

I never thought of it that way before, but it’s similar to my own SOP when it comes to dealing with arachnids.

[chgoliz]

@codinghorror

testosterone and estrogen are both a hell of a drug.

You know when a woman’s hormone levels are most like a man’s? When she’s menstruating, and from peri-menopause on. In other words, a significant portion of her life, including 24/7 by the time she’s at the peak of her career/life. But those are precisely the times that a woman is considered ‘irrational’ and ‘unreliable’ and ‘bitchy’. It isn’t the hormones, or how they affect a person, that determines whether a particular behavior or personality trait is considered positive or negative…it’s the perceived gender of the person.

[billytheclub]

*applause. ( nothin’ else to say)

[anon68952647]

about 20 minutes ago one cruised down about 18 inches from my head. When I addressed it, it actually stopped. I said "No. No that won’t do. Don’t be a creep, okay?", and it hung in the air a moment, turning slightly in the breeze, and then sped down it’s silken tether to the floor.

[MarkDow]

Video shows drunken-driving arrest of Washtenaw police lieutenant