Why (or why not) to vote for Hillary Clinton

wrath
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Bernie Sanders, his campaign and supporters are making the case that Bernie is the perfect, ultimate and unblemished liberal and progressive. While Hillary Clinton is somehow a imperfect, inferior and blemished liberal and progressive–or not a liberal and progressive at all.

Bernie was doing the same thing to President Obama in 2011 when he made the comments about President Obama I cited in my/this original forum topic post.

There are differences between Hillary and Bernie, but they are very similar on the majority of issues that are at the heart and foundation of the liberal and progressive agenda of the Democratic Party.

Bernie has not always supported liberal and progressive ideals on gun control and same-sex marriage–he has evolved to the correct position on these issues, just like many democrats, including Hillary Clinton and President Obama.

Bernie also voted for and supported most of the economic legislation and executive actions that have led to the marked improvement in our economy during President Obama’s tenure as president.

Yet, Bernie seems to be reluctant to cite and give credit to democrats and President Obama for improving the economy–something that he (Bernie) helped to improve.

He has been to doom and gloom regarding the economy. Hillary points out areas of the economy that still need to be improved, but she recognizes and gives credit to democrats and President Obama for the work done to significantly improve the economy.

Just because I point out what I think is a Bernie Sanders flaw–does not mean I think he would not make a great president over any republican.

I am a democrat and I am opposed to practically everything the Republican Party embodies and represents. I am a Hillary supporter, but more importantly I am a democrat.

I am a democrat who will respect the decision of democratic primary voters and enthusiastically support the winner of the democratic presidential primary contest.

We need a democrat in the White House in 2016!

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If Bernie wins the nomination, I would not be surprised if he approached Warren about being his V.P. running mate.

Judging from the number of Bernie supporters, especially women–this is going to be a long and hard fought political contest for the democratic presidential nomination. This is going to be a sustained political battle of attrition for whoever wins between Hillary or Bernie.

As a Hillary supporter, I am glad she is steeled and readied for the upcoming political challenge from Bernie. I believe the conclusion of the democratic primary nomination will come very late in the process–not early on as many political pundits have predicted.

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Well then, I suppose you’re not opposed to the systemic corruption the Republican Party embodies, since the Democrats are totally mired in it also. Or perhaps you only find it okay when it’s obscured by the veil of modesty the Democrats employ?

Or is it that your blind faith in the Democratic establishment allows you to entirely ignore this sort of shit?

The malaise decaying western democracies over the past few decades is obvious: the so-called ‘opposition’ to the bad guys sold us all out in the 80s and drank the Chicago School Kool-Aid (now thoroughly debunked by Piketty in Capital in the Twentieth Century as upwards wealth redistribution), so that the situation has become a game of good cop, bad cop - where we all get pissed on to a lesser or greater degree by the ruling class, but the piss rains continually.

Bernie is the only light at the end of this tunnel, and I find your insistence on ignoring this fact shockingly obtuse.

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You are above all pragmatic, and I respect that. The last eight years have shown how unbalanced our ‘checks and balances’ system can be when one party decides that doing absolutely nothing – and literally shutting the government down – is preferable to letting the sitting President get anything done whatsoever. While there are big differences in some of what Bernie and Hillary propose, we cannot let a Republican president control the Supreme Court. That can’t happen.

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Here’s how I read this thing:

Bernie did, if I recall, say that the ACA was an improvement over what we had before. But he has been saying the ACA is not good enough. A lot of people have been saying the ACA is not good enough. When you compare what we spend on health care to other civilized nations, it’s obviously not good enough.

Hilary is basically saying that the ACA is very good and we should all pat ourselves and President Obama on the back for solving everything. And we shouldn’t try to do better because that would be contentious.

Behind the scenes: Hilary, in her previous presidential bid and the current one, as well as the Clinton Foundation, has received millions in donations from Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, Bristol-Meyers Squibb, Proctor & Gamble, Aetna, MetLife, Centene, Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina, and Humana. All of whom are seriously threatened by a single-payer health care system.

Economically, it’s a similar story. Obama turned around the Bush-created recession and the economy looks good on paper. Clinton slaps a period on the end of that sentence and wants to talk about something else. Bernie says it’s not good enough because most of the recovery has gone to the wealthy, income inequality and oligarchy have continued to grow, and fixing it is going to take some FDR-level work. Bernie points out Clinton enjoys Wall Street donations, and Clinton says “everybody does it, Obama does it, are you criticizing Obama?” Well, yes, he is.

Frankly this whole exchange tilted me even farther in favor of Bernie than before, and I was already saying I’d have a hard time voting for Clinton if she won the nomination.

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All campaigns are doing that to some degree - making the case that their candidate is better than the others based on the assumed criteria of their specific electorate. It’s true that Sander’s campaign is reaching out to the progressive/socialist leaning left, because they are perceived to be the most alienated from the party ranks.

I understand Sander’s view on gun control, coming from a smaller, rural state, with a strong hunting/gun culture. I’m probably more ambivalent on this issue, in the sense that the problem of gun violence is rather complicated and complex. I think he’d support effective gun control like more rigorous background checks, etc, if his constituency pushed for it - which is precisely what we want.

As for gay marriage, Clinton is no better. Sanders does have a strong record of support local gay rights in Vermont and I’d suggest that his state’s right stance has to do with attempts to create a constitutional amendment to enshrine “traditional” marriage as the only option.

As for the economy - sure, it’s better, but as he’s said time and again, by focusing on how well wall street is doing to the exclusion of the rest of us isn’t helpful. There is still underemployment that is not being addressed and wages are still incredibly stagnant.

I’m sorry… I’m fine with bringing critical insight into Sander’s record. I just don’t think that Clinton (or Obama) is much more than center-right and that the core issues I care about have been eroded under the Clinton administration and now under President Obama. They both did some good things, and they both helped the economy, but it’s all too often at the expense of the working class and middle class. Sanders is right about the eroding middle class. If Clinton gets the nomination, I’m not going to be very glad about it, and will likely vote for a third party candidate instead. I’m really sick of throwing my support behind the least worst dude.

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Bloomberg! :wink:

(except he’ll probably only run as a spoiler against Sanders)

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I dunno about Bloomberg… I was thinking Stein perhaps, but we’ll see.

You should post that latest TNC Atlantic article here, too, BTW…

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This one?

And Bloomberg can feck off. As someone to the left of the Dems, he’s okay for a Republican, but I wouldn’t vote for him.

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Yes… this is the kind of critiques we need and the sorts of public policy discussions we SHOULD be having in this country. It illustrates an important place where Sanders is truly deficient and also brings Clinton to task for damaging things she actually did to boot. This is the meat of the problem with Sanders, but it’s one he can be moved on, I think, given enough pressure from African Americans (and people who support an end to structural racism).

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I suspect it all comes down to boring electoral math. Does moving on this cost or win him votes? He has to do something to win those southern primaries, but does he damage his changes in the other states or the general election? I don’t have the slightest idea why Clinton has such a big lead in those states, but she does. And since she’s running as a centrist, she doesn’t need to offer any kind of radical platform - but if you are running as a radical it looks a little weak if you then start saying policies would be divisive or impractical. Single payer healthcare ain’t happening any time soon either, but he’s campaigning for it.

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I’d suspect the reason she’s polling well here in the south is because it’s perceived that she can win the primary here, where southern democrats tend to the more conservative anyway. She has the backing and support of most southern black politicians, because of that, as well. Sanders is seen as a much more radical politician and is being held at arms length. The Killer Mike endorsement can only get you so far, I’d imagine.

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http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/01/25/lawyer-for-walter-scott-family-switches-sides-to-endorse-bernie-sanders/

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You posted;

“Hilary is basically saying that the ACA is very good and we should all pat ourselves and President Obama on the back for solving everything. And we shouldn’t try to do better because that would be contentious.”

“Economically, it’s a similar story. Obama turned around the Bush-created recession and the economy looks good on paper. Clinton slaps a period on the end of that sentence and wants to talk about something else.”

This is what Hillary Clinton has stated in the democratic presidential debates–and in the print media about: The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, the economy and President Obama.

From the 4th Democratic Presidential Debate: Hillary Clinton on the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

CLINTON: I would also be presenting my plans to build on the Affordable Care Act and to improve it by decreasing the out-of-pocket costs by putting a cap on prescription drug costs; by looking for ways that we can put the prescription drug business and the health insurance company business on a more stable platform that doesn’t take too much money out of the pockets of hard-working Americans.

CLINTON: Well, Andrea, I am absolutely committed to universal health care. I have worked on this for a long time, people may remember that I took on the health insurance industry back in the '90s, and I didn’t quit until we got the children’s health insurance program that ensures eight million kids.

We finally have a path to universal health care. We have accomplished so much already. I do not to want see the Republicans repeal it, and I don’t to want see us start over again with a contentious debate. I want us to defend and build on the Affordable Care Act and improve it.

CLINTON: And that’s exactly what we are able to do based on the foundation of the Affordable Care Act – what Governor O’Malley just said is one of the models that we will be looking at to make sure we do get costs down, we do limit a lot of the unnecessary costs that we still have in the system.

But, with all due respect, to start over again with a whole new debate is something that I think would set us back.

The Republicans just voted last week to repeal the Affordable Care Act, and thank goodness, President Obama vetoed it and saved Obamacare for the American people.

CLINTON: …But the fact is, we have the Affordable Care Act. That is one of the greatest accomplishments of President Obama, of the Democratic Party, and of our country.

And we have already seen 19 million Americans get insurance. We have seen the end of pre-existing conditions keeping people from getting insurance.

We have seen women no longer paying more for our insurance than men. And we have seen young people, up to the age of 26, being able to stay on their parent’s policy.

CLINTON: Now, there are things we can do to improve it, but to tear it up and start over again, pushing our country back into that kind of a contentious debate, I think is the wrong direction.

Hillary Clinton on the Economy~

CLINTON: I would work quickly to present to the Congress my plans for creating more good jobs in manufacturing, infrastructure, clean and renewable energy, raising the minimum wage, and guaranteeing, finally, equal pay for women’s work.

CLINTON: …I’m going to have the very best advisers that I can possibly have, and when it comes to the economy and what was accomplished under my husband’s leadership and the '90s – especially when it came to raising incomes for everybody and lifting more people out of poverty than at any time in recent history – you bet.

I’m going to ask for his ideas, I’m going ask for his advice, and I’m going use him as a goodwill emissary to go around the country to find the best ideas we’ve got, because I do believe, as he said, everything that’s wrong with America has been solved somewhere in America.

We just have to do more of it, and we have to reach out, especially into poor communities and communities of color, to give more people their own chance to get ahead.

From the 3rd Democratic Presidential Debate: Hillary Clinton on the Economy

CLINTON: At the center of my economic policy is raising incomes, because people haven’t been able to get ahead, and the cost of everything, from college tuition to prescription drugs, has gone up.

Of course we have to raise the minimum wage. Of course we have to do more to incentivize profit sharing, like we see with Market Basket right here in New Hampshire and New England, where all of the employees get a chance to share in the profits.

And we’ve got to do more on equal pay for equal work. That means pass the Paycheck Fairness Act so we have transparency about how much people are making. That’s the way to get women’s wages up, and that’s good for them and good for their families and good for our communities.

CLINTON: Look, I have said I want to be the president for the struggling, the striving and the successful. I want to make sure the wealthy pay their fair share, which they have not been doing.

I want the Buffett Rule to be in effect, where millionaires have to pay 30 percent tax rates instead of 10 percent to nothing in some cases. I want to make sure we rein in the excessive use of political power to feather the nest and support the super wealthy.”

Hillary Clinton on President Obama and the economy. From: ABC News

“I think that the President has fought incredibly hard from the day he walked in the Oval Office,” Clinton said from inside a barn in Concord, New Hampshire, where she was holding a rally. “I think he doesn’t get the credit he deserves for having fought for a recovery that is taking hold.”

“800,000 jobs a month were being lost when he became president," she continued, “We now have job increase.”

“Do I agree with everything? No,” she said in reference to Obama’s policies, but “I think Obama has done a lot that has put us in a good position and I will build on that, and I will go further.”

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You can certainly vote for a third party candidate if Hillary wins the democratic presidential nomination. I ask that you consider this however.

A third party candidate that siphons votes away from the 2016 democratic presidential candidate will be joyful news to the Republican Party and its presidential nominee.

The next president will in all likelihood be charged with appointing more than one U.S. Supreme Court Justice. If there is a republican in the White House–we can kiss same-sex marriage goodbye, Roe v. Wade goodbye, women’s right to control their reproductive rights goodbye, portions of the 1964 Civil Rights Act goodbye, the 1965 Voting Rights Act goodbye.

With Donald Trump in the White House as president we can forget about any chance of immigration reform be it legislative or executive action.

With a republican in the White House we can forget about protecting the planet from pollution or seriously addressing climate change.

With a republican in the White House, we can ready ourselves for a war with Iran, a real war this time–as it may in some way or form include Russia, who supports Iran.

Concern for the middle class and income inequality is great.

The African-American community for the last 50 plus years has complained about income inequality. Specifically African-American college graduates who on average have less wealth than white high school drop-outs.

If Bernie Sanders and his supporters are going to lament about black teen unemployment, wealth distribution and income inequality–than go all the way.

Here is a quote from Hillary Clinton from the 4th democratic presidential debate.–Transcript from the 4th democratic presidential debate.

I’m going to have the very best advisers that I can possibly have, and when it comes to the economy and what was accomplished under my husband’s leadership and the '90s – especially when it came to raising incomes for everybody and lifting more people out of poverty than at any time in recent history – you bet.

I’m going to ask for his ideas, I’m going ask for his advice, and I’m going use him as a goodwill emissary to go around the country to find the best ideas we’ve got, because I do believe, as he said, everything that’s wrong with America has been solved somewhere in America.

"We just have to do more of it, and we have to reach out, especially into poor communities and communities of color, to give more people their own chance to get ahead.’

White high school dropouts have more wealth than black college graduates.

White high school dropouts.

White high school dropouts vs black and Hispanic/Latino college graduates.

Unemployment rate for black college graduates and white high school dropouts.

36

I agree with you 100% on the U.S.Supreme Court.

A republican president appointing justices like extreme right wing wacko’s Scalia, Thomas and Alito would socially and culturally set America back 100 years.

This is not a time to sit out an election. There is to much at stake to allow a republican to be elected president.

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This is not a good critique. If you go back in time, Vermont led the nation by enacting Civil Unions. It was a states issue first. So to say in 2016 that Bernie was being disingenuous about same-sex marriage in 2006… that argument holds no water. That is back-casting.

You cannot look back to 2006 and say that same sex marriage should always have been a Federal issue and anyone who didn’t lead the charge was a traitor to social progress… especially when there was a sitting Republican president, and it was the states who came around individually to same-sex marriage, one by one, for over 20 years, culminating in the SCOTUS decisions of the summer of 2015. That’s how it occurred.

Your critique is a poor attempt to rewrite history, in order to level a meaningless, weak attack.

These are the typical kinds of attacks on Bernie - they have to be specious, because Bernie has never waffled or shifted on social issues in his entire career. He’s been saying the same shit about inequality for more than 50 years now.

And on guns, you need to remember where Bernie comes from. He’s from Vermont. I lived in Vermont for 25 years. Vermont has no concealed carry laws. Vermont has an incredibly low gun crime rate: in fact, the lowest. Vermont has no metal detectors in the statehouse. Any yahoo can walk in with a gun, right into the legislature. But nobody does, because people don’t do that in Vermont.

And what is Bernie’s job? That’s right. Senator, representing Vermont. The senators vote in the interest of the state. They had better vote in the interest of the state or they are out on their ear.

So this critique of Bernie’s stance on guns is also thin at best, because Vermont has very little need for Federal gun laws. They do not apply to Vermont, because guns are not a big problem in Vermont. So Bernie has voted against these actions because they would be unnecessary for Vermont, and perhaps these laws should be thought through better and written better, to be more effective at gun control in the places that need it. But they are not needed in Vermont, and so your criticism falls flat when you look at it from Vermont’s perspective.

I could go on and on. Hillary supporters are looking for anything, any little kink in the armor to try and thrust their sword in. The fact is, Bernie’s record and principles are impeccable. He does not lie and dodge like Mrs. Clinton. He has never had a shady real estate deal. People do not die or commit suicide or go to jail all around him. His wife does not cheat on him with interns. He does not take money from Goldman Sachs.

Bernie is about as close to an everyday person as you will ever see in politics during your entire lifespan. He’s no god. Just a regular guy fighting the big fight that he’s always fought from the very beginning.

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A thousand times, this.

Folks casting aspersions at Bernie are basically saying, actually he’s not ten feet tall like you say, but only 9’11½". Meanwhile every other fucker is a hole in the ground.

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It’s not a critique, it is the expressed and actual words that came out of Bernie Sanders mouth in 2006.

October 27, 2006 Vermont Senate debate between U.S. House of Representative member Bernie Sanders (I) Independent and republican challenger Richard Tarrant~

October 27, 2006 Vermont Senate Debate

The question and answer starts at 26:59 until 27:53 of the linked C-Span video.

Question for Bernie Sanders:

Do you think that gay people ought to have the right to get married outside of Massachusetts, be able to file joint federal income taxes and so forth?–if you do, would you sponsor legislation to that effect?

Part II would you tell if you think it’s time to repeal the military’s “Don’t’ Ask Don’t Tell.”

“Yea, I am not a great fan, part of the second part of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell”…“I was a strong supporter of civil unions, I believe that, I believe voted against the DOMA Bill” “I believe that the Federal Government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other state, because I think Stuart, the whole issue of marriage is a state issue, that’s what it is, so that is my view on that”

“I believe the Federal Government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other state, BECAUSE I THINK STUART, THE WHOLE ISSUE OF MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE, THAT’S WHAT IT IS, SO THAT IS MY VIEW ON THAT”–Bernie Sanders 2006 “states rights” view on same-sex marriage.

in 2006 Alabama was a state, Mississippi was a state, Georgia was a state, Utah was a state, Louisiana was a state, Tennessee was a state, Vermont was a state, Ohio was a state, West Virginia was a state, Montana was a state…etc…etc…etc.

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And your point is what… exactly? You are attempting to use Bernie’s words against him and I say it doesn’t fly. Your line of reasoning does not hold water, for reasons I’ve already given.

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