Will feminists return to the forums?

I love Cracked and I tried to watch it, but after a minute he still hadn’t been torn apart by a mob of angry Japanese people and I couldn’t watch any more. I read this article this morning - nothing I hadn’t heard before, but another reminder of how women have to find safe spaces, while men have to avoid dangerous ones. While my initial exposure to feminism wasn’t great (angry young white women who didn’t seem to know what they wanted, but were clear that it was somehow my fault; after a bit I found other voices that were less confrontational and more clear on what the issues were and what my part was in all of this), I honestly do not understand the kind of anger toward women that you can see documented in tweets and elsewhere. It’s like a kind of existential rage that I just can’t relate to. I don’t know if women with experience of living in a few countries can comment, but is it something you see more in the US than elsewhere? Not that it’s confined to there at all, but I’ve met a number of American men who were just toxically resentful toward women. They just cared less about letting that hatred show than other people I’ve seen, and were capable of treating women with less respect without any remorse. I’m going out on a limb a bit, but it seems to be associated with a greater disconnection from society around them and less of a feeling of having control over their own lives. When your value is measured by your success relative to those around you, a gain in another group’s status is seen as a loss for you. More inclusion in the workplace for women means less for men. Women having their own voice means that men’s voice is being silenced. Women being able to say no and successfully prosecute sexual assault is somehow pushing men’s rights back. I don’t want my money to pay for someone else’s healthcare, parental leave or anything else that makes them able to participate fully in society - they might challenge me. It’s all so individualistic and toxic to a society where one group being held back hurts everyone.

Personally, I have many selfish reasons to value feminism. I want a society where women are able to succeed and are more represented in management and government - I don’t think the old white men represent me or care about me, even if I am in their demographic (apart from age). More diversity is a good sign that issues that affect normal people will be addressed. I want to have more opportunity to connect with my family and not have to give my life to my work - feminists seem to be more keen to let me do that and I specifically chose my career because I didn’t want to go to an office environment where my requests for flexible time are denied out of hand or considered to be evidence of my lack of commitment. I have a great father who was away too much during my childhood, and I don’t want to turn into him in that regard. More men in my position as the main childcarer would mean that men would be less likely to be expected to give their lives to their work, and workplaces would have to incorporate family life more into their employment models. Where abusers are brought to justice and women are treated better, this makes women less likely to see me as a threat and increases my connection to others in society. Individual rights and opportunities for women for their own sake are important parts of a healthy society, but a more socialist and feminist model is very good for me as a member of the demographic that supposedly has the most to lose. Where hyper-masculine models are eroded, I have more chance of being accepted for showing weakness or emotion, and men are less likely to direct negative feelings outward to other people rather than accepting and dealing with them. It just doesn’t have to be a competition and I cannot understand why more people don’t see the benefits of more equality and inclusion.

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Because socialism means no one is a “winner” and if there is no winner then they can’t be on top.

It’s not uniquely American. Google the Montreal massacre. Canadas worst mass shooting. We have national memorials every year. Because a man who didn’t get into engineering school went and shot only the women students because feminists were ruining the world and if not for the female students he’d have gotten in.

Honestly it’s almost a late stage capitalism joke at this point. But it is interesting that countries with a more socialist leaning seem to have better gender relations.

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I meant more the general reaction that women will tend to get from men - plenty of men and women will say that they’re not feminists for different reasons (e.g. they feel it divides people, they approve of complementarian role models etc.), but there seems to be a significant amount of anti-feminism and real antagonism towards equality or women in general in some circles. I see it in the UK to some extent too, but less in Germany (or at least, in the couple of places I’ve lived there). I think people recognise and respect systems more when their own needs are being met and they know that the government and society around them has their back. You deserve a basic standard of life, and so does everyone else. More libertarian systems seem to see it much more as a zero sum game where there’s a chance that you can rise above the rest of society and therefore shouldn’t put too much effort into supporting it. Also, the more work you put into society and the more you see your wellbeing as dependent on your community’s success, the more value you see in other people’s chances of a healthy and comfortable life. I love the Scandinavian concept of ‘lagom’, which seems to promote contentment rather than raw ambition and be directly anti-capitalist. Societies that value that do seem to have better gender relations, in my limited experience.

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Yes. Maybe we’ll find more ways to share that value at more colleges and high schools. It might help more undergrads help each other against creepers at bars and parties and, yes, at work and home.

New thread party!

I second that emotion.

Group hug, logic! :smiley_cat:

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A(n) MRA man-child’s chief concern is with his perceived status in the world. It doesn’t matter if wimmins are “winning” or not, just that they believe that other people view them as what they consider to be manly men: Those that can control the wimmins in their lives. (If you’re a woman and are visible on the internet, it counts as in THEIR lives).

Its about two things: A heavy dose of narcissism which does not allow these people to view themselves as they really are, and the frame of reference of what an ideal man is supposed to look like (What they believe they should be). If you change the context but don’t address the entitlement, then you just get a different sort of inequality. Its my opinion, that the main difference with other countries is cultural, how much personal entitlement people have drives up their narcissistic traits.

But that´s just my opinion.
/rant

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I’ve whether men feel out of control to the extent they were acculturated against feelings and naming emotions generally when they were boys.

In some U.S. communities, male emotions are purged from social spaces using ritualized homophobic violence in particular locations — esp. athletic spaces, like locker rooms and football fields.

Boys socialize as permitted to have only certain emotions in social spaces — like aggression, anger or pride. They also socialize to accept violence as an outcome of emotion and to perpetrate violence according to heteronormative conventions.

As an outcome, aren’t men conditioned to accept disproportionate risks of emotional and physical violence (e.g. in a military context) and to fear their own emotional responses which they expect may lead to violence — either against them or others?

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I think men tend to identify strongly with groups where they feel accepted and useful. For that reason, I’d say it’s really important to get boys to associate with people outside of their own demographic. As a teenager, I had a number of friends who were women between about 45 and 80. They were family friends, but we’d see them every week at church and they would come to our house for the afternoon. If they needed help with anything, my brothers and I would do what we could. They were the only friends who flew to the US for my wedding. I left my faith in 2007, but whenever I’m in the UK I go to see them and we still talk on Skype sometimes. (This is just one example, the church was fairly representative of society apart from the fact that there were more women). When I’ve been to (larger) churches in the US, the trend seems to be to have smaller groups that are often based on where you are in life - teens, young couples, families, singles, older people etc. Even the main service is split, so older people often go to the service with traditional hymns while young people have a more contemporary worship service. Small groups are good and often it’s worth getting together with people who have similar experiences and interests to you, but I think as people who often have less to worry about in life, young men should spend a lot more time getting to know people who aren’t also young men, as well as supporting them without being paid in return.

I see some good indications where I live, although obviously I’m not denying that there are plenty of negatives too. I go past a middle school on my way to my daughter’s kindergarten, and you see a good number of mixed groups rather than boys and girls being separate. The boys seem respectful and will point out if my daughter is losing her glove or something. Our local adventure playground has equipment for toddlers up to teenagers, so my kids may be playing on the swings while the older kids do some woodwork or fix bikes. We have a meal all together every Friday, and the older kids will often help the younger ones to prepare the food. Recently they role played working in a restaurant, and the teenage boys took over the preparation and worked as waiters for everyone else. They’re still allowed to be boys and they spend plenty of time together away from the younger kids, but they are an important part of the group and we trust them.

I think role models are also important - where you see men around you cooking, looking after kids, treating women with respect, not putting up emotional barriers etc., it isn’t seen as an un-masculine thing. Rather than feeling less of a man, you notice how psychologically damaging more extreme models are (to men, as well as the women they meet). Kids learn from the example they’re given, so rather than doubting whether men can be feminists, I’d say that there’s only a limited extent to which female feminists can be successful without men (not that men should be in charge, but that their role is important).

@tachin1 I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I think changing the context can mean that people have different ideas of what a ‘real man’ looks like. It doesn’t necessarily take away entitlement, but it can remove barriers to moving in that direction and mean that society is controlled by more representative voices; while men and women are different in a number of ways, I don’t think we’re necessarily that different or incompatible.

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Fancy clothes = wealth/power. Dressed down = poverty/powerlessness. At a guess.

Intersectionality is everywhere.

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Feeling emotionally safe is important for potentially recovering from trauma though it’s a subjective feeling. And some kinds of subjectively preferred social safety may also reinforce risks of violence.

Judith Herman surveyed research about traumatized military veterans. They felt safest with members of their own platoon, to the point of sometimes referring to redeploy despite further risk of harm from combat.

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So the CDC helpfully came out with an infographic yesterday… explaining the dangers of alcohol… to women.
Women that are pregnant, women that want to become pregnant, and women that could become pregnant.
And the advice therein amounts to: Women should not drink, because of the risks of violence, STDs, and pregnancy. These risk are apparently tied to alcohol! And not say any other activity undertaken by the woman, willfully or unwillingly, nope, only alcohol. Amazeballs.

This is the best rebuttal I’ve seen:

But I am too a wizard!

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Well, it’s not like men should be held responsible for their own actions. /s

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Remember that Road & Track article where everyone confused the rider for a woman because his helmet had a flowery design on it, plus long hair, and treated him badly because they thought he was a woman? Perhaps this helmet would be more to everyone’s liking:

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I would so wear that… though not sure how much drag those ears would cause at 60mph.

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:smiley_cat:

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Just pipe the ears to your bike’s turbo intake using a dryer vent hose or two. Instant horsepower boost.

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That is a very cool helmet, but I still think I’d prefer this one:

I have seen more than one helmet in real life equipped with Teddy Bear ears, BTW.

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But wait there’s more!

dude or lady in there? whatever, if it bleeds, we can kill it

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My favorite part is that women are either pregnant or pre-pregnant!

ETA: Whoops, wrong reaction article. The one I was thinking of was here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cdc-alcohol-young-women-pregnancy-warning_us_56b22f03e4b04f9b57d805bc

“We definitely didn’t make any recommendations for women who are pre-pregnant,” said Lela McKnight-Eily, an epidemiologist and clinical psychologist on the Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Prevention Team at the CDC.

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Anything attached to the helmet is going to drag or buffet or do something unpleasant, especially at speeds over 35 and very super eXpecially when being scraped, bumped, or otherwise bounced across paved surfaces. Wear that stupid shit for Halloween, skip it for the ride home.

/mcpedant

EDIT: Feminists? Okay with me. My old boss MSgt Dolly M. knocked a good deal of my coworkers off their particularly male pedestal; she did not suffer the fool, myself included when I deserved it, and being around her while at work was always a lesson in power structures and harassment-as-standard.
“I’m not sure, DO I need your help lifting this bolt and putting it into this bracket? No, nope, looks like I don’t. Wonders never cease, do they? Now there’s a rock out there in that field somewhere that you can probably fit underneath–why don’t you get off my jet and go find it, huh?”
She was ~5’3" as well, so watching her go off on the dullard NCO/LT/Capt that happened by with something stupid to say was always a treat.

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SMIDSY