it’s unfortunate that we carried forward the “respect the troops” attitude fostered during vietnam, where we hunted down folks with the full power of the the state to force them to get ptsd, to a point we have it now where people feel entitled to more than their intellect and/or work ethic brings them, and pair it with a veneration of aggression previously unknown in the originally (preWWI) fairly isolationist republic
Weird flex there, mate. What does that have to do with heedlessly expansionist militant militarism? (Let alone with the shillbilly?)
I mean, that actually sounds like something the shillbilly would say.
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Yeah thanks I know what that is, but who are the “people [who] feel entitled to more than their intellect and/or work ethic brings them” that you mentioned upthread?
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the ones who volunteer for and vote to fund said complex – a stark contrast from when folks were drafted then felt guilty and compensated with patriotism towards their abuser.
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Volunteer? From what I understand, most who enter the military now do so simply because it pays. It’s just another job (albeit a potentially risky one), and one with some pretty good benefits. And I’ve known a fair number who also did so because it pays for college afterward. But the pay and benefits aren’t handouts that those who volunteer don’t deserve because they’re lazy and lack intellect. I also don’t understand how those vote to fund the MIC can be conceived of as “people [who] feel entitled to more than their intellect and/or work ethic brings them."
I do agree though that the MIC is an abuser.
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similar logic applies to those who join a drug cartel, or the mafia.
my point stands – they feel entitled to a certain amount of money and/or benefits, and will enter into an unethical organization to receive what they feel they are owed.
Ah, a lot like like anyone who gets a job. Got it, I guess. 
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There’s a big difference between signing up to work for Wal Mart and signing up to do war crimes. (Vance was in Iraq iirc?)
WTF are you on about?
People join the military for lots of reasons, the main one being it’s a steady paycheck and comes with good benefits, including funding for going to college. For some, that’s the only chance they’ll get to go to college. The US military is very working class, in fact… They are doing a job, and so, yeah, are absolutely entitled to those benefits. How is the hard to grok?
And… Rank and file soldiers are NOT responsible for America’s foreign policy. Full stop. That’s fully on the political establishment.
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Whoa. I know the Olympics is on, but that’s quite a leap.
It’s usually the individual soldiers who do end up culpable for war crimes, while the high-level commanders and politicians who set policy end up off-the-hook. Nobody who enlists in the military does so as a general…
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Well, those working class people signing up should know better, and work for $10 an hour at Wally-world instead of joining the military… they MUST be doing it just to go kill people… /s
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… look, if you want to say that soldiers are responsible for the war crimes they commit, and that “I needed the money” is not a good enough excuse, you’re just going to have to say those things about Russian soldiers in Ukraine
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uh… ok?
Under that logic, would we be entitled to blame individual members of gallus gallus domesticus for the existence of Kentucky Fried Chicken?
We’re born into capitalism-- none of us chose that. Under capitalism, we have to earn and spend money to survive, to get food in our bellies and a roof over our heads. I don’t believe people doing what they need to in order to secure their continued existence equates to “entitlement” in any way. The military isn’t an ideal choice, but for some it’s their only shot at education and employment, and I refuse to blame them for that.
I blame the system, which is intentionally designed to offer a “solution” to desperate people who feel they have no other option. I absolutely blame those who support and profit from the Military Industrial Complex for the devastation it has caused. I refuse to blame the victims of that system, who suffer and die for profit’s sake.
I won’t put words in your mouth, but I’ll freely admit that when I read that, I heard a snooty voice in my head saying, “how dare those filthy poors attempt to better their station in life? Don’t they know they deserve the lot they were born into?”
Do I really need to say why that isn’t a great attitude???
Hell, I’ve worked retail, and based on the exploitation of the workers involved (the lowest possible pay and benefits offered, the maximization of profit over people, the constant pressure to promote and sell services and products whether or not the customers actually wanted or needed them, the willingness to grind up and spit out employees because they can always hire more), the corporations I worked for were unethical organizations too. The line isn’t always as clear as we might think it is.
(Edit as noted, forgot a word.)
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Also, I haven’t yet heard of any developed nation that has figured out how to maintain its national sovereignty with no military protection at all (either through its own forces or as a protectorate of a larger nation).
So if we accept the idea that having some kind of military force—even a purely defensive one—is likely necessary, then it follows that we should support people of conscience who choose to take on that role. That doesn’t mean that we should venerate soldiers who do bad things, just as we shouldn’t venerate teachers who mistreat students. But suggesting everyone who enlists is guilty of war crimes by association is just absurdist, classist nonsense.
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And anyone who has a job is responsible for the crimes their employer does under that hypothesis. Environmental crimes that lead to death and disability, tech companies that undermine democracy, discrimination, lead paint poisoning babies etc, etc, etc.
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