Once more I quote a claim to control. @pacifica has not explained how to retain said control without exerting actual control. I have repeatedly conceded and applauded the right to protest, and it has repeatedly been deemed insufficient. So what form of persuasion is next if protest is insufficient?
[quote=“pacifica, post:66, topic:100784”]
Native Hawaiians, as well as First Nations peoples on the North American continent, are in broad agreement that it is their right to retain control of their own culture and of how they and it are portrayed in the media.[/quote].
[quote=“anon15383236, post:185, topic:100784”]
Why you so mad, bruh?
[/quote] Because this kind of bullshit belief that somebody has a moral right to control what other people say or do cost some people their lives every single day. Just ask an abortion Doctor or a French cartoonist. “I have a moral right” is one of the most terrifying phrases one can ever hear.
I’ve been largely absent from this thread becaise you & others have been doing a fantastic job. I’m stepping in to offer something that I’ve learned from my Indigenous American friends: There is a difference between inherited culture and tradition and received wisdom. It is absolutely possible for people from the dominant, white culture to receive wisdom from cultural traditions that one was not born into, but it takes decades to understand the nuances and meaning if one wasn’t born into it.
When white people “borrow” or “are inspired by” traditons that are not their own without a relationship to that culture, they are asserting a kind imperialism that goes back to the fucking Romans. Treating culture as novelty is ultimately infrahumanizing and makes it that much easier for white people to dismiss people from other cultures. Just some thoughts…
You continue to cherry-pick my comments and present them in the least-nuanced way and continue to ignore my attempts to explain and illustrate my point with anecdote, analogy, and any other way I can. It seems more than a little disingenuous that you ignore my comparison to the university system, for example.
And now I’m Al Queda! Wow, good thing it’s not Halloween time, or I’d be too busy to comment… I’d be out bombing costume stores that carry tacky fake hula costumes! /sarcasm
So what about the case of a young musician in Nigeria or Pakistan who hears Slack Key and decides that she needs to incorporated into her music. Cultural Raider who hasn’t paid her dues? Or does she get a bye because, well you know, she’s not white?
Nope, you and others have made clear that only those who respectfully pay their dues over a long time are considered legitimate to plunder culture, not someone who grabs it and runs with it without ever meeting someone from that culture. Or if they’re David Byrne, who apparently gets a “cool pass”.
Which film? Douglas is Jewish, and was this well known at the time or was he perceived as being waspy?[quote=“gellfex, post:184, topic:100784”]
Nice one, the old “Jews ain’t whites” shtick.
[/quote]
Well, they weren’t considered white for a long time! Some people still don’t consider Jews white. Ask Richard Spencer.
The history of race has never been straight forward and racial categorizations have been employed primarily to keep some people in power and others out of power.
He was a guy who borrowed from many different cultures all around the world, even within the same song, but none of it was what is consider to be appropriation. It was done respectfully and with diligent study.
I don’t see the relevance of the university to whether culture is proprietary or public domain. I know many brilliant autodidacts who care not for these institutions. I’m surprised to see you hold up one of the premier white power structures as a positive model.
I’ve asked you for is consistency, the least one should have when demanding control of what other people do. You give David Byrne a pass for plundering African music without many years of study with the masters. Why? And you still have not told me whether my young 3rd world musician who can’t afford travel to Hawaii to study with the masters is a cultural criminal. “Straw men”, as you put it, serve to ferret out inconsistencies. So far your position is “I want arbitrary control over my culture to say who is and isn’t a cultural pirate and to interfere with their free expression. I know them when I see them”.
I asked you a question about “paying dues”, the term that you yourself used. You dodged my question, and then didn’t “see the relevance” of a question I didn’t ask.
Dodge, evade, obfuscate.
And regarding the university system, I pointed out a parallel. I did not hold up anything as a model. You know that. Your disingenuous games are really getting tiresome.
I didn’t give Byrne a pass… I am expert neither in his music nor in African music. But Angélique Kidjo has performed with him. Why don’t you ask her what she thinks?
I never said your young musician needed to travel to Hawaiʻi, and I never used the term “cultural criminal”. And as I am sure you know, there is not enough information in a thinly sketched imaginary person such as your young musician for me to form an opinion about “her”… not that I need to have an opinion about everything.
I have previously said, musical styles often absorb influences from each other. That of course is a good and natural thing. But when someone plays some random pop song on ‘ukulele and calls it “Hawaiian”, then I object… which I believe even you have conceded is my right.
