It would be reasonable to deny there’s political content to games that are just puzzles or just about reflexes, with no characterization or narrative. There are plenty of those. But it’s just utterly absurd to deny that there’s political content to games that have overt political content, which most games with narratives and most strategy games do.
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What about the context in which the game was created? Tetris has an interesting and very political back-story, for example (and has been mentioned).
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Thank you for clarifying that. I think I was getting a bit unnecessarily heated, I apologize for that. I agree with you, for the most part, perhaps the only divergence is really in scope. I see the value in speaking up, though when things veer into “preaching” territory I get a bit annoyed, especially when I hear it 100 times. I get it, Zelda has some cultural encoding that I personally don’t agree with, but I don’t need to be told this over and over, and whatever solution there might be is questionably vague. I suppose I just view pointing at something to be a much lesser action than creating something, it feels like a lesser activity. And it feels like that is the whole focus of the emerging modern media feminist movement (for lack of a better term); pointing at things and yelling (not generally discussing) “SEXISM!”
This is something me and my girlfriend have painfully pondered at length, especially after a visit to the “pink aisles” of the local toy store. We’ve been planning on children, and are occasionally tortured on how, if we had a girl, we would raise her to ignore and rebel against external signalling (princess, domestic, pretty dress up, pink, pink, pink, bleh). Directly approaching these topics, while providing the tools for empowerment (here is a screw driver, here is a tech kit, go kick some boy ass) is the solution. At this point I’m forced to just shrug; I honestly have no clue, and doubt anyone does.
I’m not being numbed. I’m an adult, I can separate questionable bits from my ability to enjoy things. I love Death Wish, but find rape a questionable, and mostly abhorrent, plot device. I love High Planes Drifter, but find the “manly rape seduction” aspect disgusting. I’ve played hundreds of “damsel in distress” games, and probably watched even more movies in that genre, and haven’t suddenly decided that all women are inferior little fragile things that need my protection, or decided that that world view is hunky dory. Its a plot device, I can accept it as merely that. I’ve played, watched, and read thousands of violent games, moves, and books; and the sight or thought of actual violence still viscerally sickens me.
Please re-read my comment, I was presented a false dichotomy, and commented on both of the groups presented to me. Some people DO have thin skin, I didn’t say you, or anyone here specifically does, just that there exists people who do. There are people screaming about it, I spend an evening on Twitter and Reddit lightly researching GG, and there is a portion of people who are, basically, trollies. They exist. That is all I said, when presented with said false dichotomy. Most people probably fall into the grey area in the middle, and of them some of them can even discuss things in a rational tone. The choice I was presented was basically “you are a sociopath man-child” or “all people who say anything on this topic must necessarily deserve your full respect, accord, and sympathy because, indeed, you are in the wrong!”. Neither of those are true. That is the context.
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Maybe I should have gone with the long version. I’m usually inclined to argue that everything is political, but I thought I’d make the concession.
I remember when Tetris was new, and yes, it was associated with Glasnost. People were aware of it at the time, and the original featured art depicting daily life in the Soviet Union and clips of Russian folk music. These elements were political, and really hard-ass cold warriors didn’t like it, though pretty much everyone else did.
However, there have been many, many reimplementations, which strip away those references, and leave just the abstract puzzle game. I’d guess that most people who’ve played some version of Tetris have no idea that it had anything to do with Glasnost, or Russia. You could talk about the remaining political content: there’s the bit about destruction as a way to solve problems, or prioritizing setting things in order, or making decisions about high-risk and low-risk strategies. But those are so subtle and non-controversial that few people would perceive them as political at all.
What I was really getting at was that in most people’s game libraries – everyone’s, if you include easily accessible games on Web pages – there are a lot of games that, like Tetris, appear to almost anyone as lacking any political content. So it seems reasonable to me to say that if what you want is “mindless entertainment”, there are a lot of options available.
But those aren’t the games we’re discussing when someone tries to defend games as “mindless entertainment”. They’re generally talking about games that make overt statements about hierarchies, authority, violent conflict, race and gender and class and nation.
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I’m not entirely sure the significance, but there is something amusing about people arguing whether there are politics in Tetris based purely on the falling blocks, without taking any notice that the game blares 19th century Russian folk music the whole time.
This is not the choice you were given. I re-read your comment and my reaction to it is basically the same, that you are not really paying attention to the comments above it, because you are neglecting things people are saying to you and reacting to others they are not. For instance there’s your recurrent objection about screaming or preaching at you.
Where exactly has this been happening? I mean, commenters here are arguing with you, but I think politely and only because you chose to engage us on this topic. In the broader world I’ve mostly just seen people voicing their opinions in places I might come across them, the same way I come across the devaluing tropes themselves but much more often. If you don’t consider the latter as an affront to those exhausted by it, it doesn’t make sense to object to the former as an affront to you.
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The thing is, that all entertainments were products of hierarchies, authorities, violent conflicts, race, gender, class, and culture; everything man made are. “Mindless Entertainment” are a myth made to put a veil behind the inner workings of the higher ups discussing on how to manipulate the masses to give them more control and power over their very lives (regardless of their intentions). The whole “keep your politics out of my game” is an synonym for “keep your ideals off of mine”.
And people have the rights to over analyze a piece of art, entertainment, or any manmade objects to see what ideals the creator have at the time; and the right judge it accordingly.
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As @FoolishOwl just pointed out, it was about glasnost… It’s all about the end of the Cold War!
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Maybe you should just develop a thicker skin.
It’s big of you, though, to point out that it’s good for other people to occasionally be “punched in the gut” by art. If our video games didn’t remind us that women and people of color are second-class citizens, we might be at risk of forgetting!
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D’aaaw, sorry I’m late to this great discussion. Obligations and some such less fun things. But I like to pretend like I can bring home a summary like a southern baptist.
From the top.
God that’s possibly the most unsubstantiated balderdash in recent memory. People with an audience of greater than 400,000 should feel a moral obligation to not be abjectly inane.
Why limit to lit? Only by exploring the far reaching esoteric niches of political fiction that would run afoul of Biscuit’s Fallacy can we truly appreciate how dumb that idea is.
###Top Political Rock Operas
7- The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis
6- Joe’s Garage by Frank Zappa
5- 2112 by Rush
4- Yellow Submarine by The Beatles
3- Pinball Wizard by The Who
2- Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band by The Beatles
1- The Wall by Pink Floyd
sarcastic interlude
/sarcastic interlude
So, what you are saying, is:
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TotalBiscuit is being sarcastic there, right? Please oh god I hope they are being sarcastic.
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Sadly, no.
I remember enjoying some of his reviews. But, he decided to adopt a “neutral” position on Gamergate, and got worse from there.
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He’s a total something, but it ain’t biscuit.
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Right., “Neutral.” RIGHT. I believe that!
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That’s because he’s against Sarkeesian.
Enough Said.
Oh, and the only guy “neutral” is David Pakman; and he thinks the whole movement is stupid.
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And I’m glad preaching is fine now, I’ll remember that next time someone brings up “mansplaning”. Also, saying women are “second class citizens” is kind of taking it pretty far. Not as privileged by default, sure. But second class? Really. I’m going to share that idea with my female friends, I’m guessing they’ll get a hoot out of it.
Also, your tone makes it pretty clear that there is no point in continuing to talk to you about this. I’m not with you 100%, so I’m obviously against you.
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To be clear. I never meant to imply that people here, in this discussion, were screaming or preaching. Actually it is rather cordial, up until the bout of condescension at the end, which made me realize that my opinions aren’t welcome here. Some people caught up in this debate (on both sides, and honestly mostly on man-child-gamer side) are screaming and preaching. Spend some time on Reddit or Twitter (if you really have nothing better to do), and you’ll immediately see it. Both camps are firmly entrenched, and ire flows freely. My original point, before entering the quagmire had nothing to do with “screaming or preaching”, but was actually on topic; I merely pointed out my belief that games can be enjoyed apolitically despite encoded politics.
This turned into a false dichotomy, and then somehow everyone decided that I’m attacking people. I’m not sure how, I only attacked the dichotomy. The really ironic thing is, I actually agree with much of the views here, and have admitted as much.
Oh okay just keep on ‘splainin’ then and make yourself out to be a martyr.
and then somehow everyone decided that I’m attacking people.
Uh, who said that?
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[quote=“Jehovazilla, post:129, topic:54197”]
Maybe you should just develop a thicker skin.
And I’m glad preaching is fine now, I’ll remember that next time someone brings up “mansplaning”. [/quote]
[quote=“Jehovazilla, post:129, topic:54197”]
Also, saying women are “second class citizens” is kind of taking it pretty far. Not as privileged by default, sure. But second class? Really. I’m going to share that idea with my female friends, I’m guessing they’ll get a hoot out of it.
Also, your tone makes it pretty clear that there is no point in continuing to talk to you about this. I’m not with you 100%, so I’m obviously against you.[/quote]
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Also of COURSE he has female friends that will totally agree with him. Of course @Jehovazilla does. They always fucking do. Right. Those conveniently not present women totally exist and would totally agree with him. YEAH.
Also, your “tone”. What a nice way to avoid actually saying “calm down!”
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Yeah, I’m totally going to tell my friends to come join up to some pointless forum just to make some random internet people happy, because “proof”. What is this, third grade? Do you actually know any women who aren’t a part of your ideological echo chamber? Do you ever leave Reddit and Twitter and talk to people in the real world?
And this is why people won’t take you seriously. You probably are the worst possible emissary for your view points since you can’t even keep your condescending exclusionary groupthink at bay long enough to hold a normal conversation with someone who only mildly disagrees with you.
As for @Elusis, you must have won every debate club in the history of the world. Your wit is astounding, and your rhetorical thrust terrifies me. My argument is invalid by proof by ad hominem, faulty characterization and idiotic internet memes. Truly you are a giant among intellectuals, and your cause is truly blessed by your membership.
