It’s really fucking easy.
If you don’t like it
DON’T WATCH
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Fuck the Burqa.
Eyeballs swivel.
Look away.
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That doesn’t make it not misogynist somehow? If you can’t separate the human being from their reproductive parts…
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This whole thread has jumped the shark.
I think we could all use a bit more enlightenment.
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To be honest I don´t care one bit if women walk around topless or not. An endless parade of nude women is just a press of a button away and I have even seen some in real life, so I can manage to contain my ecxitement at the thought.
It is completely unrealistic though to expect men to not look at a topless woman in the streets. It´s a tired line, but male heterosexual brains are wired that way.
Also, your argument is a bit strange insofar as you´re trying to convince those thinking-with-penis men to “pull off” not looking at topless women in a very unexpected setting in order to encourage other women to do the same. But if they have to “pull if off” in order to get more topless women on the street as you presume would be these men´s goal, how would they actually not be creeps?
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The enduring popularity of the pictures I’ve posted on Flickr of the Fremont Solstice naked bicycle ride suggest that many people don’t have a problem with naked bicylists.
After a week of seeing people riding Harleys around without helmets on (because of something called Sturgis, according to @Othermichael), it was interesting to see a guy riding one in just a helmet, a pair of short shorts and shoes on the way back home in WA state.
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There are setups where every way available is a no-win.
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It’s a tired line because it’s been used so frequently by rapists and their apologists to excuse traumatizing and/or criminal conduct — the latter, incidentally, is perpetrated by only a small percentage of the population.
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I am not sure that @anon50609448 was expecting or trying to convince. It seemed more to me like a cause-and-effect explanation. If people creep out over nudity, then the nude are less likely to go nude. So its a way of seeing how people might be creating their own problem.
How I see it is that the problem is not whether or not to look, the problem is that of making it seem to be “a big deal” either way. If people did expect to see nudity in every day situations, then they would not have the strong reactions which make it so awkward. The strong reactions for and against act like two sides of the same compulsive coin, so both are at odds with simply accepting people’s bodies as normal. And no, being immature about nudity is not hard-wired, it seems to be very much a cultural problem. The evidence is that there are cultures where people accept nudity, near nudity, and shirtlessness without taking a lot of effort to fuss over it.
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What I wouldn’t give for an ingestible Little Book of Calm.
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Seems like you’re conflating multiple definitions of “a big deal” here to the point where the argument is less useful.
You can be okay with personal nudity but still be creeped out by someone’s ability to quietly glance from afar. One can appreciate without glaring at the “object” of attention like so much Looney Tunes hot dog on a desert island knifey-forky salivation.
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So what you are saying is that if, while in the US, as a citizen of the US, a cop comes up to you and tells you that you are not allowed to peacefully protest the latest war, then you MUST obey them and stop otherwise all you are doing is promoting your own singing career?
That is as much a US citizen’s right as it is these women’s right to ride their bikes topless in this part of Canada.
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the protest:
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What I think is the problem is compulsion. And both of the expected reactions: “Cover those NOW!” versus “OO-er! Lookie… TITS!” seem to me to be compulsive reactions, one for and one against. I think it is the same exact problem manifested as either polar extreme.
That’s what I was getting at. It is quite possible to accept breasts being there as a nice part of life, without needing to force oneself to either stare at them or look away. What is important to me is that attitudes of the body, nudity, and sex are integral - they are a part of healthy daily life, not some separate neurotic compartment.
No, the problem is the complete and utter lack of empathy for and dehumanization of women.
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There is a difference between looking, which you will be doing to an attractive woman whether she is fully dressed or not, and gawking.
Noticing and celebrating the differences isn’t in itself misogynist. Giving different values or standards for the sexes is.
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Yep, say, don’t stare at them more than you would look at someone eyes.
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Those are two completely different problems. Also it’s a subtle excuse for speciesism, since being human is a rather poor rationalization for treating others with respect.
Body-negative attitudes affect men as much as they do women, but in culturally distinct ways. Men are just as likely to stare at men or be stared at for public nudity for the same reasons that women are. The sexist element is the arbitrary definitions of what comprises nudity and exposure, as well as fashions of clothing.
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