It appears to be a martyred saint, judging by the halo. Gruesome images of martyrdom are par for the course in Roman Catholicism; a simple line drawing like that wouldn’t seem at all unusual to anyone who grew up going to a church with realistic statues and images of Jesus bleeding on the cross, St. Peter bleeding upside down on a cross, St. Andrew bleeding on an X-shaped cross, St. Sebastian bristling with arrows, John the Baptist’s head on a platter, et cetera.
It’s the martyrdom of St George…
And after, on the morn, he made S. George to be set between two wheels, which were full of swords, sharp and cutting on both sides, but anon the wheels were broken and S. George escaped without hurt. And then commanded Dacian that they should put him in a caldron full of molten lead, and when S. George entered therein, by the virtue of our Lord it seemed that he was in a bath well at ease.
Did you read both of them, or just the one that agreed with you?
As posted previously:
“Oneida Nation Council Turtle Clan representative Clint Hill, however, said the description of the seal’s portrayal did not seem patently offensive, although he had not seen it in person.
The Oneidas typically had good relationships with area settlers, he said, and “Indian wrestling,” in which opponents place their feet together and use only one arm to try to throw the other person, is a common game among friends. “With the so-called Indian wrestling, you just knocked the person off balance,” he said. “We used to do it all the time as kids.” If anything, Hill said, he would want the image changed to more accurately portray the wrestling style and to show the proper headdress for the Indian in the image.”
Tribal government representatives are not known for their white supremacist attitudes. But wait, someone from four unrelated tribes that never lived in the area is offended so Mr. Hill’s opinion must be totally invalid. The opinion of an actual representative of the tribe depicted on the seal means nothing compared to the importance of someone being offended on the internet.
I find hypersensitivity and a sense that one is entitled to lead a sheltered life horrifying, does that count?
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The provost had Saint George placed between two wheels mounted with swords, but the wheels broke, and Saint George remained unharmed. Then the provost had him thrown into a caldron filled with molten lead, but Saint George sat there comfortably, as if he were in a warm bath.
Molsheim shoulda gone with the second one…
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Because that’s the very basis of Conservatism. “We don’t know why we do it this way. We just know we’ve always done it this way.”
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I think this is a rationally designed flag. Truly, a flag of the 21stcentury.
Yet Roman Mars dares to sneer at it. What does he know?
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[quote=“jerwin, post:66, topic:72006”]
Yet Roman Mars dares to sneer at it. What does he know?
[/quote]
Well, I mean the graphic design is abominable, but in its favor: it does not depict a settler strangling a Native American; its town name is not itself prima facie racist. So Mars should give you some credit.
Thats a great link. I did not think I would watch a 15 minute vexillological TED Talk, but I was powerless to click away.
Loved the idea of changing San Francisco’s city flag from this:
To this:
This is so much more expressive than the Chicago flag. (Not sure why Mars had quite the vexillogasm he did for the Chicago flag; its fine, its distinctive, but its kind of meh.)
Oh you do have a way with words. I’m not a fan of the Chicago flag either,
Plenty of cities have good flags.
I’ll just leave a few random examples here…
If you alter it to look like “Indian wrestling”, which according to Mr. Hill (the representative of the tribe involved) is what the match probably would have been, then at first glance it would look like they were shaking hands rather than choking each other.
Also, this story is the first time I learnt that “Indian wrestling” was actually popular with Native Americans.
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Town seals don’t usually come with wikipedia articles printed below them, though, so it’s not obvious that the image should be judged on the basis of the story behind it since that would not be available to a typical viewer of the image.
Just try to remember this the next time you see or hear about something you consider to be morally wrong: it’s your fault that it bothers you, and the only reason you feel that way is to fulfill your goal of manufacturing an identity. (Your argument proves too much.)
I have a funny feeling that you would concede that there is a non-empty set of things that should be banned. Other people disagree about which things should be banned, but neither your attitude (that some things should be banned) nor the attitude of others (that other things should be banned as well and/or instead) necessarily implies that “smashing monuments and burning books” is the end result. In fact, people in the past have managed to ban a great many things without engaging in any organized monument-smashing or book-burning.
This is special pleading version of a slippery slope argument. (Your argument proves too much.)
Emphasis added. Yeah, I’m not taking that opinion quite as seriously, seeing as it doesn’t give the description of the seal that the guy based his opinion on. For all I know, someone told him: “It’s a depiction of a settler and an Indian having a good-natured wrestling match.” Which is technically true, but not a very good description of the image.
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I read both of them. The one you quote also notes Native perspectives that object to this image and similar ones, along with what you quoted:
Mr. Hill’s opinion is based on a description of the image, not the actual image. Nevertheless, even he thinks the image should be changed, in the same way I suggested it be changed in my first comment above:
If anyone here is doing the selective reading that you’re accusing me of doing, it’s you.
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I agree that it is probably a slippery slope argument. Also, that the town seal is stupid looking. Seen as an isolated event, the move to change the seal would be unremarkable. I do not see it as an isolated event. I see it as part of a growing trend that I find disturbing. I do concede that probably there is something that I would ban, if given the chance. But I cannot think of any right now, except for things that are already banned, like the terrorist suicide vest. Certainly none of the things I would ban are symbols, flags, or words. even those that offend me I am in the business of restoring and conserving objects, some of which have an unsavory past, so that probably influences my views.
No one’s proposing banning the image. They’re proposing officially changing it, which is something that happens fairly frequently whether or not anyone finds that image offensive.
Even if they did change it, I agree it would be preferable to put an exhibit in the village’s historical society building (assuming there is such a thing) about the history of the town seal.
But you made an overblown moralistic argument against any objections whatsoever to the town seal. That’s what I was disagreeing with.
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You’re making an appeal to the universal in order to understand identity politics. There’s somewhat of a disconnect here.
I’m not making any claims on my own behalf. I’m simply taking your (actually, Stephen Fry’s) argument to its inevitable conclusion. Pretty typical reductio argument.
Your argument isn’t valid because it can’t distinguish between legitimate moral issues and ones that are only remarked “for the purpose of manufacturing an identity”. If you can distinguish between the two, then you’ll have rebutted my objection.
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I don’t think that poor art skills can make something racist though. It is honestly a worse depiction of strangulation than of wrestling. Consider the anatomy. That Indian would have to have a giraffe neck for those hands to be on it. They are also at completely the wrong angle. So I don’t think that leaving out the fact that some people think it looks like a choking would be significant since the artist was clearly not trying to depict strangulation.
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It quotes a university professor who says that Native perspectives on this sort of thing are typically mixed. That is it. It is a long way from that to saying that people on one side of the issues are displaying a white supremacist attitude.
It does make another point that I had overlooked previously:
“The hands of Hugh White were on his neck area,” she said of the earlier image. “So after the lawsuit, it was determined it’s part of our history, so we didn’t have to stop using the seal. We just had to move it, so it’s down on his shoulders.”
They changed the seal 40 years ago to address exactly these concerns! Ok, it was in response to a law suit and the artist did a bad job of it but still.
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It’s an aesthetic crime, isn’t that a good enough reason to go with a new logo?
