A succinct, simple, excellent description of the problems of neoliberalism and their solution


#21

We know how Saudi Arabia got on and stays on top the list. But what about the U.S.?

The neoliberals have focused on gaining/maintaining stateless control of assets and information while the process of globalization has chugged along. They talk about how fantastic America’s ideas are, the culture, ect. and downplay the role of postwar U.S. global hegemony, yet it had a huge role at catapulting the country to the top. Neoliberals oversaw a new world order that oversees gradual decline of American prosperity, deindustrialization in particular but also the inability for any sort of modern social agenda as seen in other industrialized countries. The population gets restless in the process.

This is important for understanding the Steve Bannon type folks who believe a new world war is needed to keep the U.S. “what it used to be” i.e. maintain the post wwii era hegemony. It’s just not the racist stuff, although that’s part of it. It’s about the belief in resurrecting an entire economic system from the ashes. Don’t believe me?

Of course I think a new world war is hell and I don’t want it. But if you adopt the (insane) position that the U.S. should regain global hegemony like it had during the 50+ year postwar era, it’s hard to argue the goal can be achieved through anything but a repeat of what occurred the first two times around.

Which means if you just think that the al-right are in this game just for some short term exploitation and profiteering, think again. This all could be smoke and mirrors and the damage they seek to do is personal gain, but we don’t really know. When people are batshit crazy maybe its best to assume where there is smoke there is fire.

For a long time the left have worried about neoliberal and conservative policy that shores up global/national business but forgets the citizen. But in the chaos of this problem emerges an even more dire one, a nationalist movement that aims to reestablish hegemony through escalating war.

A nice terrifying thought for your Friday night.


#22

It’s not a condemnation of Trump so much as a condemnation of all our presidents’ economic regimes back to Carter. Trump is an order of magnitude asshattier than the worst of the aforementioned six, but in terms of his economic outlook, he’s still of the lineage.

See also Mark Blyth’s recent talk about what he called Global Trumpism.


#23

Which is where my family comes in feeling victimized, because unlike a lot of check to check families we have a lot of unusual conditions in play (several disabled people living under the same roof) and yet while on paper being more than qualified for help they see a lot of other people get, we get a trickle that had to be fought over tooth and nail, and then seeing ‘other’ people breeze through?

They aren’t angry. They’re furious… And my stepdad is taking it out on me because he sees me as a Democrat and he sees their policy as why he feels ground into the dirt having to work constantly just to make money when he can’t do an of the other work he wants to do (doesn’t help this situation ended up forcing him to give up his horses he had for twenty years. They went to a good home, but still.)

I can understand their anger. I cannot understand why discussion feels less like discussion and more ‘we are going to try pouring into your idiot liberal brain why you fucked my country up.’

So you really do need to win them back if you have any hope of winning the soul of this country away from the proto-fascists


#24

No, you don’t.

Trump got basically the same collection of revolting bigots that the GOP always gets. Lost a few plutocrats, gained a few low-education middle-class arseholes.

The big change in the election was that a sizable proportion of the working class (not the “white working class”, all of the workers) finally gave up on the Dems. This is unsurprising; the Dems have been aggressively fucking over their working class base for decades.

The Dems don’t need to convert Trumpsters; they need to regain the loyalty of their base. For that, you don’t need marketing or triangulation; what you need is genuine policies to resist the corporate-driven pauperisation of the American working class.


#25

Yes y do. They are as american as you are. They got hurt just as bad as you did. To sit and go ‘we don’t need them they are white trash we have no use for them’ is just as divisive as them going on at how evil the gays are or how brown people get everything or how illegals at just handed the things they have to work for.’ That is you going ‘these people are not worth helping.’ To me that is a greater insult than anything they have chucked at my head. For as bad as they are, they get up get out and reach to other people. They have a hardliner anti gay anti illrgal-but-rewlly-brown-people approach but they routinely physically go out and help where and how they can. They are shortsighted on the national level and hate in an abstract, but refuse to sit by on a local level when possible

You sir are out of line and are acting no better than they are in the matter. In fact you are acting a damned sight worse. No wonder they and most like them feel utterly betrayed if this is the message the democrats send. ‘We do not want or need you. Begone dirt farmer. Out of the way. We do not need your skills.’

I would like an apology.


#26

[quote=“singletona082, post:25, topic:94797, full:true”]
They are as american as you are. [/quote]

  1. People who, through no fault of their own, are treated as second-class citizens, up to and including denial of basic civil rights and free-range mass-murder.

  2. People who voluntarily chose to support an obvious fascist.

These apples taste kind of orange-ish.


#27

Except they are american. They have views I rather strongly disagree with, but to go ‘no they do not count they are not worth my time or an entire national level party’s time’ is insulting. Is it any wonder they ran with wide arms to the fascists?

You are telling them they are shit’ filth, garbage, an embarrassment… And you expect them to go ‘yes sir may I have another Sir?’ No wonder the democrats lost.

Give them something uplifting and to aspire to. Not a broad strokes national level. A personal affirmation that things may change, but they as people are always going to be valued and desired because they can ‘make america great’ or whatever slogan of your choice is.

Trump won on a platform of tearing others down. I view this as having worked because people like my family have seen themselves being torn down so others may be uplifted. Show them it is not a zero sum game. Show them EVERYONE can be uplifted without having to cast people down.

Until then we are going to not see eye to eye even though I frankly want to punch my stepdad with a brick for the words that come out of his mouth.


#28

Seems to me an important thing to distinguish when talking about these issues is the difference between political liberalism and economic liberalism. Often those seem to not go hand-in-hand.


#29

Sounds like the far extreme of the talk radio universe.

Once a person steps into the role as member of an amorphous media construted tribe I think there is little effect any outsider can hope to achieve. I’m not saying this in a whim. I have years of experience researching and interacting with high control groups and cults that do the same thing, namely prop up human tribalism through elaborate black and white “us vs. them” storylines.

People tend to leave extreme groups mainly through multiple personal disconfirmation experiences. It’s not about one conversation or arguments. It’s more about the world outside actively disproving the rhetoric of the group think. An extreme example would be for a misogynistic anti-semite that is in a car wreck but is dragged to safety by a lesbian jewish girl. You sometimes hear stories of radical transformation in people after incidents like this. More subtly, it could be cumulative outcome of years of smaller incidents that chip away at the group think.

One thing that doesn’t do particular well is argumentation and debate. Brining up information, facts or ideas to challenge the views usually exacerbates the situation and relationship. The extremist simply feels their emotionally satisfying belief system is under attack and will defend it with any absurd method they can.

Again, I’ve personally went through this in situations far removed from politics about a decade ago. To see the extremism happening on a national scale is nothing short of a nightmare.

One commenter said we need to forget these people. I agree we should forget about trying to convince them of anything, because it sometimes does more harm than good and usually the best people find their own way out of it. However they shouldn’t be forgotten in terms of showing respect and kindness regardless of how little they provide in return. A “liberal” (whatever that means anymore) showing a person on the extremist right empathy has a far more impactful long term change than words and arguments. Its another chip of disconfirmation evidence in the extremists world view.


#30

Your words show wisdom. That being forgotten is what seems to be the core case here. I only have my family as example and we are fairly atypical, but they do seem to identify largely with trumpsters. So when I say they feel forgotten I mean not just this unit of people. I also mean all the Facebook bubble they constantly fold into ‘it’s not my view its just a thing on Facebook’ said with a smile and an ‘aw shucks can’t you stop being a wet blanket’ sort of expression.

I feel at least in a few cases this appearance racism and insularity is a defensive circling the wagons. They have seen, not heard about or read, first hand examples of what seems to confirm the fact ‘everyone else is winning at our expense.’ This breeds anger that then gets magnified a thousand fold.

Give them a reason to hope and to step away from that hate and you might see the better aspects they have. Some things they will absolutely refuse to budge on, but when they feel they don’t have to be a solid wall to resist an unending storm… They might actually be polite enough that you can work with them, and regardless of how they may feel inside that is probably the best we can get.

It will have to be enough, because I refuse to let them fester in their own hate. I drank that koolaid. It is both bitter and easy to keep swallowing as you lose everyone that might have pulled you away. I won’t let them keep guzzling that gallon if I can help it.


#31

It is not possible (or desirable) to have every citizen vote for the same party. The point being made by @Wanderfound isn’t that your relatives aren’t equal human beings or citizens, it’s that they appear to be part of a core group who WILL NOT vote for the other political party no matter what is explained or promised, and that’s OK. They don’t need to be wooed to the other side. There are more than enough people on the cusp who can be.


#32

The thing is it very much looked like ‘they are not worthy of being considered part of america.’


#33

Well, maybe if they stopped thinking that everyone else is “not worthy of being considered part of America” they wouldn’t be so filled up with hatred and easily succumb to the lie that it’s other people thinking that way about them.


#34

Something I have not seen discussed with any intelligence is the 60% of the eligible population that did not vote. Both parties are telling us it is just a bunch of people that cannot find their wallets. (Republicans are saying no one without a wallet should vote, and Democrats are saying of course you do not need a wallet to vote). I suspect neither grasp what it is actually going on. If the Resistance mobilizes even 10% of that population, they will win in a landslide…

@generalcommrade you are right, you do not change people’s opinions through argument…


#35

Ralph Nader has been saying it for years. The key, in his opinion, is congress. Mobilize the non voters in tight districts and you own congress.

The propaganda system convinces these voters it is pointless to participate. They don’t understand their collective power. Most organizing institutions in these communities went defunct decades ago.

But I openly wonder how you get a culture, and I’m speaking of the left here, to put aside symbolic fights in media space for the hard work organizing folks on the ground?

Chomsky said it best. After the 2016 election he voiced some optimism stating “organizing voters in Indiana is tough but is still nothing compared to what had to be done with civil rights or other struggles” (my paraphrase).

Go through the list of congressional seats democrats lost by a small victory. The work of collecting the data in an easy to view manner is already done:

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/house-2018-crossover-appeal/

CA district 10 republican Jeff Denham won by a margin of 10k votes. The district is 40% hispanic but votes for the candidates of building walls? All it is going to take is for people to organize in one of these close districts and start making hell for a congressman there. Do it in 30+ districts and THATS F**KING IT. In less than 21 months republican good times come to an end. This is how the far right ended Obama’s ability to do anything for most of his presidency. It works.

Or we can all share John Oliver and Bill Maher on Facebook and sell anti-trump t-shirts for the next 8 years.

I think the grassroots work beyond the occupy style protest isn’t fashionable enough for people to get on board with it. Sometimes the hard work of organizing happens after something is triggered. Only one group in one important district needs to have a small victory with a vulnerable congressman (think Barney Frank and the tea party). Then it spreads that the congressman are weak and afraid, more people try it out.


#36

The only thing I can suggest is something like Movement 5 Star in Italy. I’ll give kudos to El Trumpo for changing things about campaigns by short circuiting the press, but refuse to believe a 70 year-old man has found the be-all end-all way to wire social media.


#37

It looks much more like *have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too-ism" what with all the conflicting statements.

As for sunshine, sir you are positively discriminating against vampire-americans! I insist that you broaden your inclusive-intersectionality-ism!


#38

What is this thread about again and why are we talking about your family?


#39

Because I view my family as something of the average trump supporter; angry, bitter, having paid into a system only by all appearances see the benefits go to people they see as not having put in their fair share when they could have, and insulating themselves in a Facebook bubble about nor horrible Obama was.

This is a hearts and minds war and we are losing, badly.


#40

But how does that fit in to the discussion of economic neoliberalism?

No offense, but I feel like the discussion of your family has been dominating several threads.