Do you feel the same way about Scots translations of English works? Or modern-day Scots literature? After all, English literature is far more extensive, and no one needs new Scots writing, as all Scots speakers are (at least) bilingual in English.
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Huh, yeah, apparently the Swedish/Norwegian “bra” comes from the German “brav.” But it does seem like Scots “braw” came by way of the Germanic languages, rather than a more recent French influence, but it could just be parallel pronunciation changes…
Of course not, those works exist because there was an honest demand for them and because writers felt compelled to write.
The Scots wikipedia, on the other hand, was forced into existence because Jimmy Wales wanted one more bead to adorn his quilt. Now, while it remains out there, Scots are essentially shamed into working on repairing it for free. Time that could be spent writing more original Scots literature instead, just saying …
You don’t think native Scots speakers might appreciate being able to read wikipedia in their own language? Or that people who are interested in learning the language might appreciate being able to practice reading it online?
That’s could be true, but it’s not the fault of Jimmy Wales in this case… It’s the fault of the kid who went and edited the pages to be a parody instead of an actual resources for Scots speakers. Nor is this an either/or thing. Plenty of writers manage to do multiple things. Plus, the people who do fix this mess might not be writers as such, and might appreciate a chance to practice their skills by making a contribution.
Are you saying that instead of expanding wikipedia into more languages to serve more people, that everyone should just use the “real” wikipedia in English? 
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Oh sorry, yeah, I was too tired to get that
Are you saying the same about the German, French or Urdu Wikipedia?
Assuming that everyone does or wants to speak English seems like the much, much more condescending approach.
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Oh?
Adown my beard the slavers trickle
I throw the wee stools o’er the mickle,
While round the fire the giglets keckle,
To see me loup,
While, raving mad, I wish a heckle
Were in their doup!
In a’ the numerous human dools,
Ill hairsts, daft bargains, cutty stools,
Or worthy frien’s rak’d i’ the mools, -
Sad sight to see!
The tricks o’ knaves, or fash o’ fools,
Thou bear’st the gree!
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To clarify, when I said “most of it” I was specifically referring to the articles on that website that were written in Scots.
As for stylistic writing such as songs or poems such as your example, my comprehension probably drops to maybe 60-70%, which is still pretty high for me when it comes to a foreign language.
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I might need to gloss a word or two in a stanza for such a poem as that. (Then again, I hae been a-readin’ Burns si’ th’ auld lang syne!) But spoken Scots melts my brain. I’m convinced it’s a secret code cultivated so that the English will have no idea what the Scots are on about.
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Well, evidently, this has not been the function of this particular website during the very long time this kid spent creating it (or vandalizing it, as the wikipedians would say). Ad hoc labeling a section of a private website “Scot” does not automatically make it the responsibility of Scotland.
What do you mean has changed today, in terms of demand and supply?
Is there a genuine, unsatified, need for a Scot wikipedia to start now doing those things you described, or are those needs already being provided for elsewhere? What is to be gained by diverting resources to wikipedia now? Those are the questions I think we should be asking.
No, I’m saying that the sole purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide factually correct, comprehensible and coherent information. If an encyclopedia is what Wikipedia wants to be, then the structure of the organization should serve that purpose. I don’t care what language wiki text is sourced in, I don’t particularly care if the text is then translated by people or algorithms, as long as it’s comprehensible. But if the “localized” versions are providing much less info, or giving contradictory information due to different editors, then what is their purpose exactly?
No, which is the problem here, isn’t it?
Who said that? My point is that Scots speakers and those interested in learning the language would benefit from it, properly done in the language.
There are plenty of things that people didn’t know they wanted or needed, until it existed.
How is diversifying wikipedia diverting anything? No one is defending what this kid did, they’re saying that having a wikipedia in this vernacular would be useful.
And this is often NOT the case all over wikipedia. It’s often full of inaccurate, incorrect, and incomprehensible information, because people use it to play out the culture wars.
Are you under the impression that I’m advocating for THIS version of the Scots wikipedia being preserved? Because I’m not. I’m saying that this whole thing has done a serious disservice to the actual speakers of this language and it should be fixed.
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No, I’m actually arguing against your assertion that this whole thing has done a serious disservice to the actual speakers of this language.
My couterclaim is that the existence of a broken “Scots wikipedia” has not affected the actual speakers of this language in any way, not positive or negative, because nobody requested a “Scots wikipedia” in the first place. Thats how this guy could claim it all for himself.
Now that it already exists, people will evidently feel obliged to work on it. But that doesn’t mean it actually had a function to begin with.
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Neither does ANY wikipedia, whatever the language. Yet it’s likely a resource that many of us use on a regular basis now.
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Is anyone suggesting it is the responsibility of Scotland? I’m pretty certain the rewrite campaign is a volunteer effort: I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon is issuing Scots literati with draft cards.
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I would kind of love to see that, actually! Will she do a video campaign to drum up support!
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I’ve known a few native Romanian speakers in my lifetime and they have told me similar things around ease of comprehension (but not mutual intelligibility) of other languages like Greek, French, German, Spanish, etc. I would suspect it’s more about exposure given where the country is rather than any inherent properties of the language itself, but I’ve never really looked into it.
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Only tangentially connected, but anyway: have you heard John Barrowman do his native Scottish accent?
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Oh yeah! In fact, I think I posted that very clip somewhere else recently? Can’t remember where, though. Maybe not here.
He is a pure delight, that man!
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This assertion is countered on the wiki itself, where multiple Scots native speakers have expressly pointed out that they were dissuaded from editing the wiki because of these articles:
I have lived my whole life between the Clyde and Forth Valley; I have read Scots documents from poetry to the vile Act Anent Coalyers and Salters and 18th century legal opinions; I’ve read MacDiarmid’s synthetic Scots - but despite all that, I never felt qualified to edit sco.wiki. Any time I looked at an article there, it seemed to use a specialist phraseology that I wouldn’t be able to follow, even those little things like isolated “nae” for negation where I would have put a composite “isny” or “hasny” and the now-legendary “an aw” intrusions. Until yesterday, I would have put that down to me speaking Scottish-English, Glaswegian, or whatever, as distinct from this “Scots” which seemed to be elsewhere. Now I am thinking the dictionary-thumbing painting-by-numbers approach of those who had written much of sco.wiki had generated a perverse effect which implicitly repelled editing by local speakers.
Scots is a minority language, and fairly unique in the world in terms of being close and yet distinct from English. I’ll save you from a full history lesson, but the short of it is that Scots is a language that is mainly spoken by its users as opposed to written down. It can actually take a lot of (personal) training and confidence to write (scrieve) in Scots (even if you are fluent speaker) as many are discouraged to in school or work.
I suspect that is part of the problem in having a seven figure sum of people who use the language daily being outnumbered by non-native speakers on the wiki. As noted elsewhere on this page, there are native-speakers getting organised after yesterday’s revelations.
If genuine Scots speakers have been reluctant to edit the wiki, then I’d argue this has done a huge disservice to both the language, and native speakers who wish to preserve it but have chosen not to based on these actions.
Inaction, a chilling effect on contribution, cannot be ignored as a “disservice to the actual speakers of the language”.
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Apologies, I should have known!
Only if she can get Irvine Welsh to do the heroin entry. And Bob Dole’s.
And Ken MacLeod to do New Labour’s.
And Iain Banks to come back from the dead and do the Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism page.
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