Autopsy report declares police shooting of Tamir Rice, 12, to be homicide

I’m not certain what would constitute a safe distance. If we are to assume that the gun is real, and that we want to communicate with the person holding the gun, but not allow that person to harm us with the gun, then we would need a distance over which a bullet cannot travel, but voice communication can.

Once again, if there’s blame to be had here, I think we should determine whether that blame is rightly assigned to the officer, or to the procedure that he was following. To draw a military example, unless a soldier does something unconscionable that cannot be excused by “just following orders”, then we generally don’t blame that soldier for the war; we blame the policy-makers who initiated the war.

Sorry I sort of checked out of this thread. What am I being asked to comment on? The report I saw about his performance at a previous department?

Yeah that is pretty damning that the guy shouldn’t have been a cop. At least not with out some sort of new review and assessment on whether he was fit for duty. Unfortunately sort of like bad teachers, they seem to find a new area where their fuck ups aren’t known or ignored and hired anyway.

You know I was thinking about this and other things, like the guy who was shot in a Walmart holding an airsoft rifle. I think one of the problems the cops are going in primed for a hostile confrontation. I’ve been reading some thing about how we make decisions and how humans in general are terrible at it. Priming sets your biases and you will act in a way to confirm your bias nearly ever time. In the Walmart case the 911 caller lied about the victims actions. The cops went in thinking it was one thing and acted before they could find out what was going on for themselves.

3 Likes

Oh I just read one of the articles here about “what is an airsoft gun” and it wasn’t completely accurate.

It said, “As paintball gun games gained popularity in the 1990s, more people asked for realistic-looking weapons to use, Hunnicutt said.”

That isn’t really true. Paintball worked hard from the late 80s to 2000s+ to distance itself from being a “war game”. This resulted in players shooting guns that were anodized all sorts of colors and wearing motorcross style jerseys and eventually playing not in the woods but on field with giant balloons as obstacles. This was called speed ball as the games were fast paced and how the tournaments were run.

Now there was always a segment that preferred playing in the woods in camouflage, aka woods ball. But back then even though the guns might have been black, they didn’t really look like real guns. Even in the mid 2000s when the more mil-sim look caught on, the big honking hopper full of paintballs on top of the gun gave it away that it wasn’t real.

Now airsoft has been around about as long as paintball. In fact the first major paintball magazine, Action Pursuit Games, included airsoft for its first issue or two before switching exclusively to paintball. Airsoft had been more popular in places like Japan where people couldn’t own guns. It took a lot longer for it to catch on here partially because of its realism and war-game feel. I think paintball made the idea of shooting at people as a game acceptable, and then people who wanted a more realistic experience gravitated to airsoft.

Back when I played though there was not a lot of cross over between players. I know paintball players sort of looked down on airsofters as being sort of wannabes who cheated a lot (airsoft uses plastic BBs that don’t leave a paint mark, though they do make paint pellets for them). We saw paintball as more of a sport.

But boy do some of those guys go all out. I mean they spend thousands on their kit to get the exact same gear one would find on special forces in Iraq. Their guns are made of metal and operate nearly the same as the real gun. Many of the accessories are actually interchangeable, leading to a lot of black market knock offs of things like piccatinny rail systems and stocks. Japan still makes some of the most sought after guns.

They have always had BB guns that looked like real guns. I have a really crappy Crossman that looks, more or less, like a 1911. But I was never left unsupervised with a BB gun. I think parents see airsoft as a toy - and it is less dangerous to shoot plastic BBs than metal ones from a real BB gun. But I really think they need to be used with supervision, and given the public’s general irrational fear of guns, they are naturally going to flip out and assume it is real and call it in, vs think, oh its a kid with an airsoft gun.

Again I am not saying this particular shooting was justified or not. Just wanted to give some info on the history of things.

It looked distinctly like a toy to me. But then again, I took more than 2 seconds to look at it. Asking the kid to put it down might have been a good idea too. Or maybe just ask him if it’s real.

If you are a real coward who can’t stand the idea of any risk at all, a taser works from what I’ve seen. But let’s be realistic, the cop was tired and needed some time off. Killing a child gets him paid vacation.

I think killing children falls under “something unconscionable”.

5 Likes

… Maybe police work isn’t for you?

1 Like

Bah, police work isn’t as risky as being a logger, construction worker, fisher, umpire, grounds maintenance worker, etc. It’s not even in the top 10.

3 Likes

You know I have seen the stats on deaths etc, and I used that in a discussion when an older cop pointed out one of the big reasons that number isn’t higher is 1) most cops wear body armor now, 2) safer cars and more driving training, and 3) trauma medicine has advanced and saved more lives. They still suffer 50-60K assaults per year.

Of course for every Chicago where I think cops do face a higher degree of danger, there are 50 smaller towns who can count on one hand the number of murders in the past 100 years.

Law Enforcement Officer Down Memorial Page

For 2014:

Total Line of Duty Deaths: 109 Assault: 2 Automobile accident: 24 Drowned: 1 Fire: 1 Gunfire: 43 Gunfire (Accidental): 2 Heart attack: 15 Motorcycle accident: 3 Struck by vehicle: 3 Vehicle pursuit: 5 Vehicular assault: 10

By State

Illinois: 1

Statistics
Average age: 40
Average tour of duty: 12 years, 7 months

If you click on Illinois, you find:

Police Officer James Morrissy Oak Forest Police Department, IL EOW: Monday, March 17, 2014 Cause of Death: Automobile accident

That’s a suburb, not the city of Chicago.

Meanwhile:

http://www.wgem.com/story/26558064/2014/09/17/report-farm-deaths-up-in-illinois

A Country Financial report says between August 1, 2013 to June 30th, 2014, farming deaths in Illinois were up from 12 in 2013 to 21 in 2014.

21 versus 0: apparently it isn’t all that dangerous to be a LEO in Chicago.

(One could argue that safety precautions and trauma medicine have improved for all the truly dangerous jobs as well.)

5 Likes

I’m not going to argue that there aren’t more dangerous jobs out there. The difference is one is the environment and machinery around you isn’t actively out to get you. You won’t spook or get threatened by a lathe, but it will render you a mass of bloodied flesh if you don’t operate it correctly.

Again I think the number of assaults is an important number to consider. They are targets in some area and unlike most of us who can walk away or turn the other cheek, they are supposed to uphold the law if they see something going down.

On the other hand I am also aware that spitting on a cop might be called an assault, and some cops are at least part of the problem with their attitude and go looking for trouble.

It’s a complex issue that won’t be solved until the cold, rational logic of our robotic overlords take hold.

I don’t think Polak was on a witch hunt, or trying to scapegoat Loehmann for anything. At the time, Loeheman’s only problem was that he wasn’t cut out for police work.

The time of the shooting is the absolute end of the chain of events that killed Tamir Rice. Loehmann was the trigger-man, but there is certainly plenty of blame to go around. To use the military jargon, this was “fucked up by the numbers.”

Police procedures have already changed as a result of Tamir’s death:

Really? Ya think? Only just now? Somebody screwed up pretty badly that it wasn’t this way all along.

But that begs the question of culpability. Tamir is dead, but if we diffuse the blame sufficiently, no one will ever get more than a hand slap.

Jim Polack is probably the last person going back up the causal chain who is off the hook, because he unequivocally recommended that Loehmann be fired. But Loehmann was allowed to resign…

  1. Cleveland PD hired him without reviewing his record.
  2. Cleveland PD assigned him a “role model”, Garmback, for whom they had already paid out a $100K settlement for police brutality, and who had already shot another suspect.
  3. 911 dispatch failed to pass along the information that the gun might be a replica
  4. Somebody gave Tamir a replica that was so realistic it got the boy killed.
  5. Garmback chose to approach the suspect in a way that put both himself and his partner in imminent danger, narrowed the decision making window to seconds, and basically dumped his rookie partner in a kill-or-be-killed situation.
  6. Loehmann began shouting instructions to Tamir from inside the patrol car, with the door cracked open. PA system not used, no way to have any assurance that his commands could be heard, much less comprehended.
  • Tamir reached for the gun (according to the police…). We’ll never know why. He’s dead.
  1. After Tamir was shot, Loehmann and Garmback waited at least four minutes to render first aid.

That’s what I call fucking up by the numbers. Who is culpable? We’ll be lucky to ever know. The history on these things points to the likelihood that no blame will ever be assigned. Except in this case, the person who gave Tamir the replica firearm (if an adult) will probably do prison time.

One fact remains: Loehmann pulled the trigger. He was the last person who had a chance to not kill Tamir Rice. He made a different choice.

5 Likes

Good post davide405. My perspective points toward your #3 and #4 as being pivotal. I might also add in the point that Tamir was brandishing this gun at people, although I don’t know if his age reasonably allows us to point much of a finger at him; it’s possible that his parents or guardians feel some responsibility for his actions. And, I think that Loehmann’s positioning in the chain inclines him to receive more of the blame than I believe he should.

Others will lean different ways, but it is important to see it laid out like that.

This is a valid point, but it becomes muddied when the children are pointing firearms (or replicas indistinguishable from such) at people.

For 3, I think someone commented elsewhere that 911 don’t pass on information like that, because they don’t know if it’s true.

4 just seems to me like the least bad thing on the list. I played outside with toy guns loads as a kid. The thought that it could get me shot never occurred. If 5 and 6 were done properly, 4 wouldn’t have mattered.

I wonder why 911 was called to start with? The caller said it was a kid and they thought it was a toy. If it were a white kid, would they have called at all?

4 Likes

So the two least trained people (one of whom was a child) in the scenario are the pivotal reasons why a “trained” LEO caused the unnecessary death of that child?

5 Likes

For some reason, arguments from cops about why it’s safer now to be a cop ring hollow. According to this chart, police lives are put in danger by enacting laws of prohibition more than anything else

I think the shoot to kill training and the shoot first attitude have much to do with it as well. Dead citizens are safe citizens.

1 Like

Where in the many-minutes-long video do you see a person other than Tamir? Who was he pointing the toy at? There’s no one there but a security camera.

4 Likes

Yup, you’ve hit the nail on the head there.

1 Like

Habeas corpus.

Is there reason to dispute the reports that Tamir was brandishing the replica gun (I think that’s more accurate than “toy”) at people?