Black Americans killed at about 20x the rate of Europeans

[Read the post]

So you’re saying we should get rid of the black people?

1 Like

Insert HomerHedgeGif here

No, they’re saying we’re falling behind in our murder of Europeans.


It has been a bad statistic for decades and no one seems to want to talk about. Probably because racism. But you can’t hope to fix anything if you can’t talk about it. I think it basically it means living as a poor black in America is akin to living in a some other 3rd world nation with a high murder rate. It is important to note too that crime by middle and upper class blacks reflects those of other races. Poverty is the root disease I think.

If you look at the 2013 FBI stats, of the 2491 blacks killed, 2245 were killed by another black person. Though that make sense to a degree, as people are murdered generally by people they know, and of the 3005 whites murdered, 2509 were murdered by other whites, but because there as so many more whites in the country, the per capita rate is much less.

But clearly there is something going on in our poor black, densely populated areas. Are they being held down by the system? Learned helplessness? Differences in culture? A combination of this and many more things? How do we help make it better? That is the real question which has no easy answers.


I couldn’t agree more. And the 1% will do anything, anything, to avoid talking about it. So, poverty is never the problem in the inner cities. It’s the teachers’ union, or black politicians, or the Democrats, or a culture of dependency. Anything other than poverty.

Most people forget that MLK was killed in Memphis while he was fighting not for civil rights but for the sanitation workers’ right to organize. And whatever we might think about John Edwards, his political career was not killed by his philandering, but by his talking about poverty.


This could easily be corrected.

America has so many excess guns that they could be mailed and couriered by the millions to random locations in Europe. Heck, just put 'em on little rafts and release them into the North Atlantic Current.

The NRA would approve; they’d be bringing freedom to the heathen.

In a few years that graph will be largely flat.

It is said that whosoever the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. In fact, whosoever the gods wish to destroy, they first hand the equivalent of a stick with a fizzing fuse and Acme Dynamite Company written on the side. It’s more interesting, and doesn’t take so long.

  • Terry Pratchett, “Soul Music”

If Nate Silver looked at wealthy/poverty instead of race I am guessing what he’d find is “affluent white Americans don’t get killed as much as poor white Americans, and poor white Americans are getting killed at <15? 20?> times the rate of Europeans”.

Just a hunch.

I swear sometimes I just think we’re just entirely screwed. I could say the problem is education, and the someone would remind me that you can’t educate kids whose parents don’t care enough to do their part.

1 Like

I’d say you’re doing a sloppy but sustained job if that’s the main objective.

1 Like

Yes, being poor dramatically increases the chance you will be murdered. Especially poor in the city vs rural. I guess in a city you are more likely to run into someone you need to kill.

I’ve seen stats of cities who break down their crime rates by income level, and the murder rate is almost all poor.

Even in Chicago which has a very high murder rate, you can see it is certain areas that are the worst, and a little bit away there is almost nothing, and certain areas with no murders at all. This site breaks down the Chicago stats.

Lithuania, a country half the size of Pennsylvania is practically a shooting gallery over there as the #2.

It’s a fantastic statistic if you’re a racist. Take the black-on-black homicide rate in the US, stick it next to the numbers for African countries and say “look at what these apes do to each other!”

It is, but it’s the special kind of poverty that’s complicated by racism. It’s the kind of poverty that can’t easily be escaped because if you’re competing for jobs with even less qualified white people, the white people still get the positions 8 times out of 10, according to studies.


Unfortunately, that IS true. But at the same time, no one seems to want to acknowledge or talk about it. Chicago alone has the same number of homicides as the Newton shooting every 18 days or so (with around 7 a day shot and wounded).

My friend lives in a horrible neighborhood with shootings down the block regularly. It gets a 10 second mention on the news. Occasionally I will see someone in the community do an anti-violence campaign, but it gets no traction with the media. I think some of them don’t want to further shed poor blacks in bad light, re-enforcing stereotypes, and the others just really don’t care about poor people, especially blacks, who live in another world away.

Yes, for sure racism and even just bias makes things worse all around. And unfortunately it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and a feed back loop that makes one feel that their situation is hopeless. People with out hope don’t care if they hurt others.

Watching John Oliver’s bit on lead.

It is pretty clear that lead reduction has caused a reduction in violent crime. I’ve seen articles on studies saying the same thing.

I wonder… if poor blacks are more prone to be exposed to lead in older homes and thus that makes up at least partly for the elevation in violence?

Where do you live? Or more to the point, what is the closest major urban area with significant poor neighborhoods to you? Why can’t you talk about that city once in a while, instead?

Every single time, you bring up Chicago. And that jackass (literally) website. Every time. Why is it always Chicago?

1 Like

Don’t take it personally if you live in Chicago. It just so happens someone took the time to gather a fantastic number of stats and breaking the information down in several easy to read graphs on ONE page. AND it has the honor of having one of the highest rates of homicide. Even though there are more cities that have higher murder rates per capita, Chicago is impressive with the shear numbers.

I have also posted PDFs from Milwaukee as they have their stats broken down some to include causes, race, age, sex, income level, etc. I have found a couple more large areas I have seen and saved to my lap top. But again, people aren’t likely to actually slog through a pdf. That is a concise page showing the murder and shootings and even police shootings all in one location with references.

If you find something similar for any other city I would love to see it.

As for where I live, here: But they aren’t super detailed.

It just so happens to be compiled by a guy who introduces his ideas in this way:

By definition, another rapper/bullet magnet leaving one dead and four others wounded, would be a mass shooting

BTW, that “rapper/bullet magnet” is the murdered victim in that case.

He breaks down crimes by neighborhood names, perpetrators (despite nearly 90% being unknown) and victims by race, and victims only by gender (not perpetrators…gee, I wonder why that statistic isn’t being shown? /s). He doesn’t give any stats about economic class. It’s made very clear that the problem is black neighborhoods, not poverty.

This guy has such a nasty agenda that you are sullying yourself by continuing to use him as your sole reference point.

And, he makes a point of redefining terms to get the results he wants. If you look at what CBS Chicago reported from the FBI statistics:

Big Cities With The Highest Violent Crime Rates

Detroit, Michigan 1988.63
Memphis, Tennessee 1740.51
Oakland, California 1685.39
St. Louis, Missouri 1678.73
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 1476.41
Baltimore, Maryland 1338.54
Cleveland, Ohio 1334.35
Stockton, California 1331.47
Indianapolis, Indiana 1254.66
Kansas City, Missouri 1251.45

How do the country’s largest cities compare? Of America’s three biggest cities, Chicago had the highest violent crime rate at 884.26 violent crimes per capita. New York City had a rate of 596.7 and Los Angeles had a rate of 490.71.

– and –

Big Cities With The Highest Murder Rates

St. Louis, Missouri 49.91
Detroit, Michigan 43.52
New Orleans, Louisiana 38.75
Baltimore, Maryland 33.84
Newark, New Jersey 33.32
Buffalo, New York 23.22
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 22.43
Memphis, Tennessee 21.38
Atlanta, Georgia 20.47
Cincinnati, Ohio 20.16

Chicago had a murder rate of 15.09, New York had a rate of 3.93 and Los Angeles had a rate of 6.66.

Basically, you’ve found the one guy on the internet who’s making the point you want to make.

1 Like

What point is that? I think the point of that site is the ridiculous amount of murders in one city.

The point I was making referencing that site was that there were clear areas where it was really bad in Chicago. There were other areas that had only a few murders and some with none at all. That the violence is localized. That site isn’t trying to make the point that it is a poverty issue. I honestly haven’t even read any of the commentary sections, I merely reference the data provided - which is one page you can scroll through vs 50+ page PDFs that no one will end up reading.

[quote=“chgoliz, post:18, topic:76801”]
He breaks down crimes by neighborhood names, perpetrators (despite nearly 90% being unknown) and victims by race, and victims only by gender (not perpetrators…gee, I wonder why that statistic isn’t being shown? /s). He doesn’t give any stats about economic class. It’s made very clear that the problem is black neighborhoods, not poverty.[/quote]

Finding crime stats with any detail is a PITA, and when you find it once it can be hard to reference to show someone else later. That site doesn’t have all the data, obviously, but a lot of info is gleaned. Some of it interesting and important, some of it not so much, like the number of people shot in the ass. If he is gathering data from new reports, he won’t have access to the
such things as economic status of the victim or suspect. You aren’t even going to always have the race of the suspect because you don’t have a suspect. You will know the race of the victim.

[quote=“chgoliz, post:18, topic:76801”]
This guy has such a nasty agenda that you are sullying yourself by continuing to use him as your sole reference point.[/quote]

I don’t know what this person’s agenda is. The front page is just statistics with no commentary. It is hard to claim there is an agenda in that. I haven’t read the commentary section, but either way, it appears this complied list is pretty accurate. It also complies all homicides (including police shootings), vs just murders which the CPD compiles.

And this isn’t my single reference point - but hey - let’s look at the OFFICIAL Chicago PD data.

Looks like we have a 2014 overview here.

Now you can go to another page and it breaks down these stats per district here:

Oh hey, I should thank you for prompting me to look again, I found their annual reports which are WAAAY more detailed than standard stat sheets. Although 2010 is their newest online for some reason.

But like you said - why pick on Chicago? You’re right, and I already said, that the PER CAPITA rate is much less than many other large US cities. But the shear number - over 500 people a year - is just staggering compared to little St. Louis who has a much worse rate, but only 188 murder in 2015.

But hey lets look at St. Louis.

And here is their 2013 annual report:

Again it shows how it is certain districts that are the hot spots for the worst crime.

One of the BEST crime reports I have stumbled upon, with more detail than most places is Milwaukee.

Here is a 50 page annual report with a lot more stats and analysis. The take away I got from reading this was, in Milwaukee at least, if you are going to be murdered, you are probably black, poor, you know your murderer, and both of you have been arrested in the past.

In another thread I lamented screwing off instead of doing something half way productive. Looking and finding better reports is one of those things, so if you find any you think are interesting please share.

What I quoted was from that one page: if it had been a newspaper, it would be considered “above the fold”. The fact that he’s both directly and subtly stating that the dangers are (mostly) restricted to black neighborhoods rather than referencing them as poor neighborhoods is exactly my problem with the page…and should be a deal-breaker for you, as well.

1.4 MILLION people die in China each year due to air pollution. That’s a staggering number, but one reason is because there are billions of people in China. Per Capita is the fair way to look at these sorts of statistics.

And the 500+ who are shot and killed in Chicago include at least some of those in nearby suburbs, which are not included in the official population statistic for the city. Which means, the per capita rate is actually even lower.

You would expect, based on animal studies, a higher kill rate in cities due to greater crowding. Yet that’s not happening: the three biggest cities aren’t even in the top 10 list. If you look at it from the point of view of where are the concentrations of poverty in the country, violent crime statistics start making a lot more sense. The fact that blacks have a tendency (for all the historical reasons we all already know) to be more likely to live in poverty means that if one is looking for it, one could (falsely) argue that the common denominator is race. But it isn’t, it’s poverty. So anyone who goes out of their way to make the point that black neighborhoods are where violent crime happens is manipulating the statistics to grind their own axe.