I still think it’s a shame that the TCE (“EU Constitution”) died in 2005 and was replaced by the much less ambitious Lisbon treaty. The TCE addressed many issues with the EU and added badly needed checks and balances.
2 Likes
Yeah, you’re right.
Fuck the Civil Service.
2 Likes
Nope.
A friend has just discovered that her parents voted Leave - and the downturn may seriously impact her husband’s business. She asked them why, and they said “we thought it was the right thing to do.” So she said “didn’t you think of the effect on our business?” “No,” they said, “why should we?”
As my father says “They didn’t think.”
10 Likes
But if it’s not idolatry, is there a way you can talk about it without invoking independence or democracy? And swelling coffers of the EU isn’t a bad thing in and of itself either. How do you feel the EU was hurting the UK? For example, if lack of independence was the problem, is there a particular issue you can think of where the UK suffered because it wanted to go in one direction but the EU went in another?
On the balance, do you think that’s a reason to leave the EU? If so, is that because of some effects of the current governance structure or because of a philosophical objection to the governance structure?
2 Likes
I’m an American and while I’ve watched the Brexit events unfold I’ve got a pretty indirect view of the whole. Could you list, say, three specific freedoms that EU membership was restricting that justify the exit? I understand that it feels like there’s some giant regulatory monster suffocating Britain to some people, but don’t understand exactly what it’s doing in enough granular detail to see why it’s truly an issue worth such a radical response with the carnage entailed.
8 Likes
Leave? No. The EU is still a huge success story, imo because it’s more than a tariff-free economical block. But the role of the EP is more than a mere technical detail and your comparison of EU member states with US states or Canadian provinces is not apt.
But presumably my comparison of EU member states with my liver’s role in my body was also not apt. If someone really thinks that the rules governing EP are so bad that the UK had to leave then I guess that’s how democracy works. I think that’s a very small number of people, and the overall point is that we shouldn’t go it alone for the sake of saying we did.
2 Likes
And Brussels too.[quote=“Enkita, post:629, topic:80366”]
A friend has just discovered that her parents voted Leave
[/quote]
Ok, I’ll give you that one. Do you have 17,410,741 more examples?
Independence and democracy is the defining issue, though it has seriously damaged the UK fisheries for example. Nation states no longer get a veto when new legislation is put through which may not be beneficial. It hampers independent trade with other countries (eg BRIC nations) outside the bloc. It’s a financial drain, with only between half and three quarters of the money being returned in a rebate, which is directed by Brussels on how to allocate that money. Eurocrats are not removable by the voting public when they’re unhappy with them. We are required to contribute to bailouts of other countries. It has expanded its remit through mission-creep with its policy of ‘ever-closer-union’.
There’s a fair amount of granular detail in the Brexit Movie.
ETA
Here’s a left-leaning version for the case if you’d prefer.
Lexit - the Movie
“Can you give me three specific details of freedoms restricted by EU membership that justify the response?”
“Here, watch a 1 hour and ten minute movie…”
11 Likes
This. I think this is the thing that recommends the EU more than, say NAFTA here in the US. The EU facilitated the free movement of people, not just goods and capital. Here, we have the free movement of capital and that’s been hard on labor. No one freed up people to move between North American borders.
6 Likes
You asked for granular detail, not bullet points.
It restricts the freedom to;
make trade deals with other nations
control borders
control our own fishing quotas
control our own laws
If you want granular detail, then you’ll have to look it up. Google is quite good for that.
Yeah, but I doubt many of those 75 year olds then proceed on to “several decades more in retirement.” How many centenarians does Britain have?
Also:
2 Likes
From the Office of National Statistics
A fair number as you can see, with a growing population of centenarians every year as medicine advances.
Yeah, most of the ground troops in Vietnam were drawn from the working classes, you’ve got that backwards.
- Those aren’t ground troops in Vietnam. They are performers portraying other performers.
- I’m not middle class.
- Bite me, Frodo.
3 Likes
- You don’t say.
- Nor am I.
- Kiss me baby.
the democratic deficits are a sore point, I’m not sure if this can be disputed seriously (or my English is not sufficient, wouldn’t be the first time…) - and are often used to paint “Brussels” as the antichrist. But one has to applaud the governments of the member states - they were able to use this to deflect criticism (“we had NO say in this matter, Brussels decided so”), as if they are not ultimately enabling and creating the policies via commission and council.
take @pixleshifter as example - he seems to be genuinely believe that the EU institutions are uncontrolled separate entities, as if the fishing quotas were not decided by the fisheries council, consisting of the member states’ ministers of agriculture. the one democratic institution in the EU has no voice in this matter, the quotas are set without involvement of the parliament.
7 Likes
There are some trade-offs there, true. In the balance it’s hard for me to say with any certainty what the net benefits are to the UK though it’s currently looking like a net loss. More freedom to go it alone, and less opportunity from the mutual benefits of cooperation and open markets of the EU. Time will tell, though projections from those in the best position to make them look like you’ve gained one freedom in exchange for another at a net loss.
Gotta keep those mudbloods out.
Fisheries are a domain with shared resources that should be managed by mutually binding regulations. So now you can shortsightedly overfish and drive your fishermen into poverty in a decade while also either harming the responsible countries around you or triggering them to overfish as well. The EU was doing you a huge favor there, you should be grateful for more responsibly managed fisheries (even if the quotas were still too generous).
I can see being grumpy about the bananas, but it’s not like your laws were being dictated to you wholesale. Get some perspective here. TBH, most of that interest in increased control over laws seems motivated by a desire to weaken EU labor protection laws. I’d wager your freedom will result in a new set of chains for working stiffs:
8 Likes
3 Likes
These markets are only open within the EU, external markets are controlled so that member states cannot make their own independent trade deals.[quote=“nemomen, post:644, topic:80366”]
Gotta keep those mudbloods out
[/quote]
Two thirds of my work colleagues are Poles and Romanians. Excellent people. I share a house with an Italian, a Spaniard and a Lithuanian. I’m an immigrant myself, so that racist red-herring doesn’t wash with me. Please stop trying to make it about xenophobia, it isn’t. Imagine if you had an open-borders policy with the whole of South America. Your labour market would explode, and wages for the lower earners would stagnate and then drop steadily as they’ve done here. It’s about an immigration policy that suits the requirements of the country from all over the world, for skills that are sorely needed.[quote=“nemomen, post:644, topic:80366”]
The EU was doing you a huge favor there, you should be grateful for more responsibly managed fisheries
[/quote]
A good percentage of the quotas are being given to large Dutch trawling firms. We are also quite capable of managing our own waters sustainably without EU directive.[quote=“nemomen, post:644, topic:80366”]
seems motivated by a desire to weaken EU labor protection laws
[/quote]
Tell that to the French who’ve been rioting in the streets for the past two months over their labour laws. No EU protection there.[quote=“nemomen, post:644, topic:80366”]
I’d wager your freedom will result in a new set of chains for working stiffs
[/quote]
If that would be the case then we can at least remove our lawmakers through the ballot. We can’t remove the EU lawmakers this way.
I’ve got to go off to work in half an hour, so, it’s been fun.
I posted an independently made, Left-leaning video making the case for brexit under the brexit movie above if you’d still like to see some of that granular detail, and are suspicious about the official leave-side’s version of what the EU is really like.
Catch you all soon
