http://forums.punterplanet.com/ (NSFW, fairly obviously)
Just one as an example. It’s a review site for punters. Obviously, in any commercial transaction, you want ahem, bang for your buck.
Why do you think they’re sociopathic? Is being lonely, busy or just plain horny now a sign of sociopathy?
There’s a whole bundle of reasons why people choose to buy sex. Hell, the brothels round here even offer special rates for couples.
No, that’s not the explicit assumption (if it is, quote me where Hill makes this assumption). And if it is an assumption, it’s a really, really stupid one. In what other economic analysis of a system do you only consider changes in supply to be changes in production from established suppliers?
Even if it is an explicit assumption, it doesn’t make much difference because the number of existing suppliers (and thus, supply as a whole as imagined under this ridiculous assumption) is still constrained by social attitudes, which have constrained other potential suppliers from being active suppliers. The existing supply curve already incorporates this socially-imposed scarcity.
Maybe it comes from believing all the things we are told about trafficked sex workers and underage sex workers? Because I’m having a hard time believing that those who have sex with tweenagers and the like are well-balanced individuals looking for emotionally satisfying relationships with their friendly neighbourhood sex surrogate.
So again, your imagination of sex work meaning people having sex with teens - and now you are making classist divide between ‘sex surrogate’ and sex workers. There’s no logic in this.
We are constantly told that prostitution supports trafficking, and that the average age of entry into prostitution is very young—and it’s not always those who think prostitution should be illegal making these claims. Sure, prostitution may serve perfectly healthy purposes. And it’s possible that in your community this kind of sex trade is typical.
But if you want to criticize me for my sarcastic use of “sex surrogate,” allow me to criticize your very narrow and apparently ethnocentric and classist view of the sex trade. Prostitution is a global phenomenon, and most prostitutes do not work in the industrial West. I don’t think prostitution as practiced in most of the world follows the contours you seem to be suggesting.
If you ask me, people who believe whatever the fundamentalist groups who wants to eliminate sex work at all cost due to their belief about what sex should be for woman - going as far as using exaggerated data about trafficking and stigma/prejudices and putting sex work workers to sewing factories under the guise of helping them - AND - the opportunistic NGO’s wanting profit from this and neo colonialists who wants to feel they have better lives than marginalized and people not in the west <<<<< they are the sociopaths.
If we learned anything from kony2012, what we need is funded peer based sex work orgs and to support sex workers to speak for themselves and to tell others what is needed for safety and well being in the industry. NOT an outsider… It is the job of non-sex workers - especially the privileged - to listen.(NOT make up stories about sex workers or people in other countries and assert that it is true for ‘most’ sex workers as if you would know or should have the right to speak on behalf of)
BTW - I have worked along side Empower- Thai sex workers, Frangipani - Uganda sex workers,PNG, and Indian sex worker organization. Sex workers of other countries also do not appreciate your neo colonialist western assumptions about what they do and being patronizing.
I’d say it isn’t too far off. Because the law varies from one locality to another and the act of buying or selling still has a hefty social stigma attached, both buyer and seller frequently conduct their trades as though it were illegal in all concerns.
Arresting & shaming johns will probably do little more than cause an upswing in suicides & domestic violence. Arresting & shaming sex workers much the same.
I’m on the legalize, light of day, tax and inspect side of things on this issue. I have a problem with those who conflate human trafficking & prostitution as an argument for criminalization because one is certainly a crime and the other is a projection of morality. I also think criminalizing industries merely provides a better cover for the aforemetioned crimes than legalization & regulation would.
So there are some parallels to the war on this, that and the other as I see it,
Great to know. Have you ever visited the brothels of these countries? Do these organizations pretend to speak for all sex workers in their countries? Do they pretend to speak for all countries, as you are? Do they claim that there is no forced prostitution in their own, or neighbouring countries?
yes I have - and no organization , except for NGO’s that are not peer based wishing to profit off of sex workers makes claims to speak for ALL workers.
I am not PRETENDING to speak for ALL countries - I just don’t make stigmatizing assumptions about others as you do.
No one is talking about forced work in ANY work. We are all against this. Sex workers are fighting for decriminalization so to eliminate forced labour - as with any industry.
Oh come on now,
have you, pretend, as you are, claim.
find em
What I don’t get is why we still tolerate tin.
Lots of things are made of tin, many people mine tin, profits on tin are at an all time high, millions of people carry bits of tin in their pockets and use them to access BoingBoing.
But we all know that children are forced into mines and subjected to horrible treatment up to & including murder, all for tin dollas.
Sure, it isn’t the same, except for those few ways that it is the same. Betcha dollars to donuts that if we outlaw tin the slave trade in tin miners will soar.
I think most problems to do with labour issues arise from our blind uncritical following of capitalism.
Well I can’t, because his blog now says it can’t find the post anymore. It is at the very least baldly implicit in this quote you yourself posted:
Where it outlines that behaviour of existing suppliers and expressly links it to the supply curve being talked about.
I don’t know - how many other economic systems are
and
What’s really sad is that this is the same conversation we were having from Victorian times where sex workers were sent to Magdalene Laundries under the guise of helping them. SAME convo about how women’s worth(emotional, psychological) depends on her sexuality and how white privileged class should SAVE them.(Rather than offering equal opportunities and rights)
The same nuns that ran the laundries now run anti-trafficking organization. Go figure. They also do so in plain sight - fully understanding that they can use people’s prejudices to their side. On their facebook, they clearly state that it is true - but saying that people are now trying to make everything better by saving trafficking victims instead (when in reality, victims of magdalene laundries were never compensated, and still waiting for direct apologies from them)
Even the largest anti-trafficking org supported by Oprah and others were found to be fraudulent.
Even then - people STILL REFUSE to listen to peer based sex work organization and continue to ignore the real issues sex workers face - such as violent mass raids at brothels, stigma - which indeed DOES kill, access to health care, labour rights violations, not being able to report to police, etc… the list goes on and on…
I conclude that it will most always be like this as it has always been - privileged few enforcing their morality, prejudices, and their views even if it causes more harm then good. And tapping themselves on the back making/supporting policies that works for no one except making them feel better about themselves. Deliberately harming the marginalized or harming sex workers due to adopting prejudices and supporting those that wants to harm sex workers.
You’ve just told me that “[s]ex workers of other countries also do not appreciate your neo
colonialist western assumptions about what they do and being patronizing.” Kind of sounds like you’re making claims about all sex workers in other countries.
If there’s an objectionable logic fallacy, you could simply point it out. (And how many logical fallacies were in your reply?)
She’s the one making the claim about what sex workers in other countries feel and believe. It’s factually false that all sex workers there have those beliefs or that some countries do not have massive problems with forced sex workers. Visiting brothels in those countries would likely make her aware of this.
How is it stigmatizing to acknowledge that many countries have huge incidences of forced sex workers? I recognize the same thing about tantalum mining: is that stigmatizing?
I’m not sure that decriminalization will reduce forced labour. It certainly hasn’t reduced forced labour in tantalum mining or carpet manufacturing. And the incidence of forced labour in the sex industry makes it different from forced labout in, say, the computer programming industry.
Sure, he talks about existing providers working more hours, but his figures still include a P0 term, which has to mean something, as it’s the inflection point where people either enter or leave the industry. I mean, you could say from his discussion that it’s baldly implicit that no one will ever leave the sex trade, as prices will never fall below P0, but I don’t think that’s a reasonable interpretation of reality.
As for to my question asking"in what other economic analysis of a system do you only consider changes in supply to be changes in production from established suppliers," I’ll say that there is obviously influx and outlflux into this system, regardless of the barriers to entry: the prostitutes we have today are not eternal, and will not always be prostitutes. Barriers to entry are not insurmountable, and are common in many industries. Law degrees are a barrier to entry to the legal profession. Social mores are a barrier to entry to sex work, working as a hit man, working as a drug dealer, working in low-status jobs, perhaps working as a lawyer, and all sorts of things. Existing supply curves for the legal profession (and every profession) already incorporate the barriers to entry: if anybody could be a lawyer then you would have much fewer people charging $1,000/hour for legal advice.
NO ONE said anything about ALL sex workers or most sex workers. Sex work organizations in other countries are fighting neo colonialist like yourselves and have made statements "rights, not rescue " - to basically not ASSUME what most sex worker would like or experienced they have.
You are the only person that claims most sex workers are trafficked and underaged.
and again, no one is trying to eliminate a whole industry because trafficking exists either like they are with sex work. Decriminalization will allow people to come forward and sex workers to organize and tell you what they need rather than having people like yourself influenced under religious right with NGO funding in mind to speak on their behalf.
How is it NOT stigmatizing for white prejudice person fed by Christian Right propaganda - USA’s spreading of it’s morality - to make up the numbers and stories of other people and speak of them as if they are nothing but victims needing saving by USA/other white people?
Perhaps it’s harder to acknowledge that your t-shirt is more problematic than sex work.
continuously talking about a whole group of marginalized people with little voice as all trafficked teens is disgusting. You have managed to not see sex workers as people with HUGE varieties of experiences but just an object for your neo colonial ideas that you enforce and feel correct about just by your privilege INSTEAD of actually listening to sex worker organization that represent sex workers to come up with policies that best serves the population. http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2008/05/06/sex-work-trafficking-understanding-difference/
VISITING BROTHELS IN OTHER COUNTRIES WILL PROVE YOUR POINT??? - maybe you need to get up and visit other countries rather than watch sensationalist TV from your couch. I have made my point clear that I actually DO know much more than you about this topic - given I know, have spoken to , worked with many sex workers/sex work orgs from many countries including researchers that works with sex workers , social workers, etc. And do have pretty comprehensive idea as opposed to just being opinionated American being fed by the media to push and support USA effort to make money off of marginalized.
Perhaps sociopathy is not quite the right word. However, its the closest word I can find to describe a customer (i.e. male) who has so utterly emotionally divorced one of the most intimate acts of connection with another human being as to turn it into a monetary transaction. It is perhaps one of the the purest forms of objectification and de-humanization one can find in our society, and there is little wonder that many, if not most, prostitutes (if the interviews I have read are to be believed) feel little but loathing for their customers.
As for the lonely, there are any number of conduits for human contact. Purchasing a receptacle for one’s sexual urges is not one of them. And as for horniness, if one has no concern for one’s partner’s emotional well-being at all, then why the necessity of a partner?
Also, let me clarify, purchasing the services of a prostitute does not make you a sociopath. It is, however, evidence (in my opinion) of some degree of sociopathy. I don’t think the desire to utterly ignore the emotional connection in the act of sex or the emotional well-being of one’s partner is particularly healthy. I also strongly suspect it leads to further objectification of women. I doubt many regular purchasers of prostitute’s services are supporters of women’s rights.
In the context of someone’s life, it may well make sense to do so in exchange for economic benefit. We all must make trade-offs to earn a living. But a purchaser is paying for the privilege of of treating their partner as nothing but a sexual object and then discarding them. Not a healthy personality trait.
