The problem with cultural relativism is that it presupposes a definition of what is a “legitimate culture” and what isn’t.
“Native Americans” as a whole are a “culture”, and so everything they believe in is legitimate and and by definition as valuable as any other culture?
Right-wing conservatives are not a “culture”, so we can point out that they are just wrong?
But hang on. I am not American, so “Americans” as a whole (all races and political parties included) are a “culture” different from mine.
If a moderately left-wing American were to pose as an Austrian, I’d probably label him as an excessively flag-waving ultra-nationalist who uses painfully militaristic “support the troops” rethoric to cover up all sorts of war crimes. I’d find his weak opposition to the death penalty disgusting. I’d also label him as excessively religious and as strangely tolerant of dangerous religious fanatics.
But, “Americans” are a “culture” different from mine, so I’d respect our differences.
But how far does it go? Do I support my moderately left-wing American friends against the American conservatives? Or do I decide that a well-armed confederate flag waving white born again Christian is just a person from a culture that is a bit farther away from mine?
I actually consider it a right and a duty of every culture to look at every other culture’s objects and to interpret them in its own terms. It’s called “trying to understand other cultures” (and, by definition, never succeeding completely), as opposed to “remaining completely ignorant”.
But who are “they”, and what do “they” want? Because if its the religious conservatives among the Natives who want it treated as a holy site and the progressive people who want it researched properly, then I’m with the progressives. No matter whether the “progressives” constitute 10% or 90% of the population.
Thumbprints in the adobe bricks at Mesa Verde NP in Colorado took my breath away. The drive through the park did that as well, but here’s a protip if you’re on a M/C in that park: Don’t speed past the park rangers, even if you deem them slowpokes and the roads are fresh and clean and wonderfully, amazingly, beautifully curvy.
I believe this may vary on a state-by-state basis, but that’s not usually illegal. If it’s not your land, then that’s a problem. It seems like this involves a lot of BLM land.
There’s a famous case in Oklahoma around the “Spiro Mounds.” When the land-owners discovered the importance of the site, and the government started paperwork to take control of the land as a national treasure, the owners raced to excavate everything they could. They destroyed many of the artifacts in their haste and worked all the way up to the point when it wasn’t theirs anymore. They couldn’t be prosecuted. Now I believe we have some laws protecting burial sites and public lands, but not necessarily private non-burial sites.
As a minority in America, I can certainly see how a culture could end up in that place - current identity or self being tied to a “dead past.”
I mean, Native Americans were (are) forced to give up / surrender that culture. It’s not just that it’s dead, it’s that it was actively killed by the Europeans that came in. It’s not as if the culture was allowed to evolve and grow into a modern version of itself unhindered. I can certainly see how a community would then feel tied to trying to win back or somehow honor that culture that was torn from them.
And I really don’t think this situation equates with the “cartoons of a dead prophet” situation.
Also, your lack of understanding of a culture (or mine, or this guy that stole 30,000 artifacts, etc.) does not justify the theft.
I’m not really saying anything about this case. I’m only saying that I don’t care if people steal the detritus of MY ancestors. I’ll admit to not understanding why people do care. My lack of understanding justifies nothing.
Agree, but I wrote “appropriate” in the sense of “take away”. London and Paris are full of stolen Egyptian artefacts. Why should Egyptians have to travel to Europe to understand their own past?
Which means you are deciding that you get to decide who is progressive and who is not.
It won’t harm anybody or anything to wait until the people who actually live there decide collectively that the site should be researched. (In fact it may be good for the animals and plants not to be disturbed). If people want to dig, let them start with their own backyards; if they want to dig in someone else’s backyard then mutatis mutandis should apply.
Good thing it isn’t my call on the corncobs, I guess. I respect the right of others to preserve old corncobs if that’s important; but they wouldn’t be important to me personally, even if they were my ancestors’ corncobs.
That’s really good advice for any State or National park…Park Rangers do not fuck around when enforcing the law.
These guys are not friendly Ranger Smith at Jellystone stressing over the ursine abduction of your pic-a-nic basket…they are extremely passionate about protecting the areas under their purview and they do not take kindly to visitors flaunting the rules. You WILL get a ticket (at a minimum) along with a very stern lecture or get your arse thrown out of the park.
If one takes a step back and realizes this is literally the only, unique example, it might make a difference in ones thought process. Perhaps don’t think of it as an abstract connection to people.we aren’t related to, but the rarest of rare phenomenon that can’t ever be replicated.
You’re talking out of your ass.
I worked as an archeologist for nearly a decade at several “digs” in my home country and abroad in Asia. Archeology is often a science of trash. Much of what archaeology knows about the past comes from trash. Those pieces gawked at in museums round the globe? Often enough found by carefully sifting through old refuse (latrines, wells, trash pits etc.).
Even those loose arrowheads could provide vital information if the context is preserved. FFS we reconstructed troop movements from roman vs germanic skirmishes just by finding and analyzing the topographical distribution of hobnails from roman caligae.
So plz do science a favor and keep your grubby mittens from the “old trash” you find hiking (apart from being illegal in most countries)
The rareness of the phenomenon perhaps does make it interesting from a scientific, or simple curiosity perspective, and perhaps worth preserving, but my personal view on that is not affected by whose ancestors (mine or someone else’s) left them there. I respect the rights of others to have a different view.
I cycled through Mt Rainer NP a few months back. There’s not a pine-needle out of place. The place is immaculate. Almost unnaturally so. The US does take it’s national parks very seriously. Good thing, too. Might be all that’s left.
So, because you don’t care, others shouldn’t either? If you don’t understand why people do something, it doesn’t automatically make it bunk… instead of dismissing it, why not read up on it, or ask about it? That doesn’t mean you have to agree or whatever, but at least be respectful and not just dismiss it out of hand.
Then we both agree on the first point, and I won’t ask you to change your opinion on the second. To the larger audience (cause I ain’t singling you out, just using this space to vaguely mumble something) as long as respect for other people and the commons is preserved, I think we will be okay.
