…
Cause I like jokes about wizards, Cheney, goblins, and Ronald Regan?
I am honestly stopping now. @marilove and I agree on the concepts. We still disagree on implementation.
I just think some people mix up shitty, cruel behavior and words with “haha just a joke!”. It’s not that hard to consider the consequences of your words. And keep in mind that even though your particular group of friends may be “in” on the joke, not everyone is that educated or well informed, and not necessarily because they don’t want to be.
Like, for example, Weird Al had a lyric in one his recent songs/videos that came off a little stable, and his response and correct was amazing and spot on.
He did not get defensive or try to hide behind “but some people think it’s funny, it’s totally an in joke!” He really understood that hey, it wasn’t appropriate for something being consumed by the masses. It is considered offensive to some. And there are better ways to convey my meaning, anyway, that aren’t offensive. So he made a change and it didn’t hurt the integrity of the song at all! And in fact, for me, it made it even better. He was so kind about it all.
Weird Al is a good example of someone being like oooops, yeah, you’re right. My bad. Let’s fix this. Thank you.
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I’ve only played the game the once, and I think we played it incorrectly because everyone was reading out their own combinations to the room then we all picked a winner.
This is Scotland so displeasure was noted with a lot of swearing at the person responsible, who had to choose to pipe up with their own crappy juxtaposition and be tarred with it if necessary.
We all laughed a lot and took not a little amount of joy in castigating those who deserved it… I do kinda wonder if some people were cowed by it but it didn’t seem that way. Mind you, the social norm of sarcastic overemphasis, usually in the form of profligate swearing, is a trope ingrained deeply into the culture here.
I totally don’t buy the excusatory mode of blaming the game, the individual themselves undoubtedly chooses to be offensive and is so if that’s what they are. Perhaps there’s a slight modal shift if the person has to read it out themselves? I wonder.
At any rate, the game certainly wasn’t boring but there are, for sure, individual cards which just are racist or homophobic or misogynistic or just plain over the line and shouldn’t be in there.
And there’s the crux. They are in there. We can choose to buy the game and take them out, the creators can release new versions without such cards but the criticism is valid because something like (and I haven’t seen this, just attempting to imagine such a card) “…so I threw acid in her face”, would lead me to verbally assault the person who chose such a card and force me to question whether I wanted to give such a game any of my attention.
Insofar as the game allows people to make novel combinations, it’s probably impossible to remove all really horrible consequences from the game but that doesn’t mean that it should explicitly include such vomit inducing phrases as I’ve seen.
Also, somehow, Freeze Peach is a novel phrase to me.
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I totally don’t buy the excusatory mode of blaming the game, the individual themselves undoubtedly chooses to be offensive and is so if that’s what they are. Perhaps there’s a slight modal shift if the person has to read it out themselves. I wonder.
What? One “chooses” to be offensive? People don’t just sometimes say offensive shit? Seriously? Words do mean things and they do matter and they can be offensive and harmful. Language is important.
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Insofar as there is any choice whatsoever, then yes, I would say that an individual must choose their actions and if their actions are offensive, then so is the person. Is that what you meant?
Ah, yes. There’s the crux. Placing the responsibility of marginalized people to speak out and defend themselves against racism, sexism or homophobia on a Saturday night when they are just trying to fucking enjoy themselves. Of course.
Anyway the rest of your comment is pretty disjointed and doesn’t make a ton of sense.
Insofar as there is any choice whatsoever, then yes, I would say that an individual must choose their actions and if their actions are offensive, then so is the person. Is that what you meant?
Seriously. Insofar as this makes no fucking sense.
At any rate, the game certainly wasn’t boring but there are, for sure, individual cards which just are racist or homophobic or misogynistic or just plain over the line and shouldn’t be in there
At any rate, this has already been stated.
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I was attempting, perhaps disjointedly and without aplomb, to place the responsibility on the creators of the game.
I am willing to get into a conversation about the neuroscience of agency but we should probably start another thread if we are to pursue that angle.
[also, It occurs to me that the person who bought the game should be aware of the contents and not put it in front of anybody without going through the cards themselves]
Okay, so the responsibility is with the creators of the game, but ALSO we cannot discount the reality of how the game plays out in real life and among real people. The creators created something with the intent of making a light hearted game. However, the game is very open-ended. The players are going to be using those cards independently of the game creators. The interpretation of those cards in gameplay is important. I do not think that the game creators intended the interpretation of some of the cards to be as problematic as they are, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t somewhat responsibility. So are the players. And neither the creator nor the players exist in a vacuum.
Those cards were created within the context of our society, and the gameplay happens within the constraints of our society. That is important to remember. But it’s also important to remember that the interpretation of those cards by players may not always match up with the intention of the creators. Particularly since there are SO many cards and a big variety of matches.
It’s also an open source game. Lots of new cards have been made by the creators and by players alike. So that brings on yet more possibility for different uses and interpretations of cards that may not be super stellar.
This game is open source. That can be great, but also problematic. That’s why it’s important to keep discussion open source as well. And to remember that sometimes shit really IS offensive and hateful and toxic and that it’s okay to eradicate horrible shit from existence. Censorship is not inherently negative. Allowing certain speech or behavior because of “free expression” is not always healthy. It’s important to be thoughtful and empathetic.
And to remember that just because you personally do not find something offensive, it does not mean someone else who does is without a valid point. Your experiences are not universal.
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Yes. You appear to me to be echoing my points. Where is it that you think we disagree?
Do you think we disagree?
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Maybe we don’t disagree, and I was just not understanding you clearly. If you agree with what I have just stated, then I think we for the most part agree.
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Creators should have been more responsible and forward thinking about consequences.
Still problematic because it’s a language game and people, Jeesus, People, will be playing it and using novel, insulting or otherwise shit combinations of phrases.
We need to be cognisant of those around us and not insult them if we can help it.
You should be severely castigated if you intentionally insult someone in public discourse.
I think we do agree, I couldn’t understand the snark.
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No, while typing my reply, your post disappeared. OS X Yosemite on a new computer running the latest Safari. I scrolled up and down trying to make sure it didn’t autoscroll. I even opened another tab and loaded this page and looked for it. Was not there. I posted anyway and reloaded page to make sure it was fresh, then clicked on the up arrow in my reply to jump to that post. It would jump up the page but not to your post and scrolling all the way through did not show your post. Clicked the up arrow on it again and it just did the spinning loader icon. It sure appeared as if you had retracted it. Site bug?
All that aside, your comments to me have been nothing but trolling. You are very good at it, I’ll give you that. I guess one could be proud of trolling people. You’ve told me what I was thinking, and called me un-empathetic, privileged, indifferent, without principle, easily offended, and entitled. And you’ve done it in the “well I’m not saying this is how you are, but if you get offended at what I’m saying, well that obviously proves that is how you are” speak. I was never offended by the SU&SD article, nor Leigh’s post, I merely thought it was a bit concern-troll-ish. And you couch your insults in concern troll doublespeak yourself ("I’m not saying you’re wrong to do this,…), as I’ve said before, lame. And then you try to insult me by implying that I’m spending time here replying to you rather than what, feeding the hungry, tending to the sick, housing the homeless? I guess you’re to blame for that though, right? If you had just ignored me I could’ve spent all this time volunteering somewhere. Was schooling me on all of my shortcomings really worth what you’ve cost some charity?
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I’m very troubled by this post; I haven’t been a long time follower of Boing Boing by any means, but I’ve enjoyed the pro-active content, and progressive, scientific narratives behind most articles; this article, to me at least, feels a bit reactionary and amateurish - perhaps this was written by a student?
In defense of CAH:
First of all, this is a game for adults; I feel like somewhere on the box the card game comes in this is specifically mentioned. This is a fun card game that licences a group of intimate friends to say naughty and in-any-other-context awful, blue-ish things; COH creates a safe space where it is understood and encouraged to one-up the other peoples playing even more awful and cringe-inducing cards - the values of this, and this is what people will trivialize, is that when played among intimate friends the game works as a powerful bonding tool; no one is going to be shamed for anything, and everyone is confiding in each other that everything being played, said, is going to stay in this designated space and isn’t going to leave (this is why the game only works with intimate friends - someone made a negative comment about this game as a party game; rightfully so, this isn’t a party game - if there’s a suspicious link in the group of friends that someone feels might later that night get on whichever social media, etc you prefer and gossip about what was said during the game, the trust of the group is lost, and the game is ruined; people who have read Foucault, who are familiar with his theories on power and trust, and how he illustrates his ideas via Kink culture, specifically with tools such as safe-words, will understand the dynamic that COH creates when played well. The players get to suspend their moral and ethical characters - an activity that is becoming more allusive as top-down, centralist, politically-correct ideology expands its sphere-of-influence, co-opting social justice - .and are allowed naked, unjudged, pure expression. Of course the game can and is often played lightly as a party game, and maybe that’s the problem. Who knows. My two cents:
Play the game with the people you love. It will only make your friendships stronger. If you’re made uncomfortable by the game, the beautiful thing is you don’t have to play it; but you also don’t have to write a mean-spirited, sensationalist article shaming and demeaning the intellect and tact of the people who enjoy the game and the ideas it stands for; doing so is crass, taste-less, and it betrays an authors opportunist bent to create content for content’s sake.
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You can take Settlers of Catan and cram it up your __________________.
Even people who avowedly love the game have stated they don’t feel 100% of the content should be in there.
Now, that’s not to say a top level comedian could take any card and actually make a funny joke with it but the game is not just for top level comedians.
At the absolute outside, the responsibility to make sure the game isn’t played with such challenging cards might be shifted from the manufacturer to the owner.
Discourse should be open to any and all forms of language but people will and should complain and ignore you or ask you to change if you constantly use freeze peach to step over the line. I’ve said elsewhere I don’t agree with the author’s appraisal of the game but I do think making sure companies don’t produce harmful products and asking people to ensure they don’t pointedly insult others isn’t an ask too far.
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You are judging me by what you associate those words with. Not the same thing at all.
Where is the propaganda in the old ad piece? I cannot see it for the life of me? You say nothing has changed, but then admit you are probably posting about it more frequently. But its not the topic or frequency thats’ the main change. Its how it is pursued. Take the recent protein world piece. It attempted to make it look like the ASA banned the ads are as a result of the protest. Not True. It was banned due to the health claims in the material. It uncritically posted comments from the petition celebrating the removal of the ad… which only came down at the end of its scheduled run. It ignores the many women who backed protein world (women being the majority of its customer base). Its a biased hit piece. It and the Vintage ad piece are worlds apart. Hey, its your blog, and if you have decided to become a fox news like fountain of hit pieces, then good luck with that. But yip, things have definitely changed around here.
ideas or statements that are often false or exaggerated and that are spread in order to help a cause
I would be focusing on the false or exaggerated, and throw in misleading.
Do you believe in the equality of all genders? If the answer is yes, then you are a feminist. So yip, obviously, and I consider myself one. One does not have to support intersectional feminism to be a feminist, think trigger warnings should be taken seriously, or , like the folk at shutupandsitdown, think its ok to use white and male as a smear.
Honestly and fairly.
A game with too many possible interpretations is “problematic” because people might combine things in ways unforeseen by the makers that might cause offense.
An open source game is “problematic” because people might create their own content that “may not be super stellar”.
Followed by a defense of censorship in which ideas should be “eradicated.”
Sickening.
This is actually beautiful.
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