The problem is there’s a large percentage of the population too stupid, ignorant, or otherwise mentally incapacitated to get that far. It’s LABEL or GTFO!
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A very cute (and lesbian, and multiple black belt) female friend and I were in a bar and a guy was basically doing all these things, and after he wouldn’t take any of the very obvious hints she smiled sweetly, got very close to him, and explained really too politely that he needed to stop being a creeper and leave her the hell alone or she would rip his fucking head off and shit down his neck.
Sadly most women aren’t in a position to be able to back that up literally, nor have the force of presence to suggest that it might be possible, but I do think a few more face slaps and thrown drinks wouldn’t be going too far. The problem is that these guys are generally really dumb and you really have to whack them with a clue-by-4 to get anywhere.
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This should be an iron-bound requirement for all positions of power!
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Yes
Crowley is fucked up in many ways, but the quote above is spot on.
Or an alternative quote, “Dance like you just don’t care.”
Once you let go of the attachment to the outcome everything is fine.
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The SNL video is predictably geoblocked but this post was worth it for the male privilege video at the end. Thanks!
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What you have described is the complexity of human social interaction. Everyone has to deal with it, not just those who are dating. This is not new. Women, like men, vary wildy in their opinions of everything you listed. And since none of us can please everyone, we can only please ourselves. Do what you think is right. Sane people will respectfully disagree and work it out with you, and those who aren’t will simply go away. Everyone wins.
Drop all of that baggage and relax! The only person imposing all of those rules is…you.
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I just say that I support feminism.
I don’t know this is completely true, its not like you can’t decide for yourself what it is you support. People bothered by the word can also use other words to define whatever it is that they support. Which they don’t, its not like they go:
“I wouldn’t call myself a feminist but I do think that discrimination based on gender is wrong”
or
“Fuck feminists, all I want is for men and women to be equal”
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I’ve heard this a lot and it’s weird to me. I mean, I can understand not wanting to claim to be a misogyny-fighting superhero when you’re not, but “feminism” is just an ideology. A set of socio-political beliefs. Do you really think that it’s not your place to declare your own beliefs?
I am a feminist because I believe that the oppression of women is a major social problem, and I generally agree with the approaches that other feminists propose to solve the problem.
Even if you’re pretty much worthless in specific struggles against sexism and patriarchy, simply stating your beliefs is still important and helpful, not something to avoid out of respect.
Part of the trouble is the transformation of labels like “feminist”, “anti-racist”, or “ally” from assertions of conviction into titles which imply a certain status or respect. Because a title obviously can’t be handed out arbitrarily, it must be earned. And so then we run into questions of: who are the judges bestowing these titles, and how elite must you be to receive one? And finally, and most toxic: once you’ve got it, what does it get you?
It doesn’t make sense to treat political stances as social currency. I mean, nobody’s like “oh, they believe in human rights, so I can trust them.” (at least I hope not!). But also nobody’s like “I refuse to say I believe in human rights, because I might get in trouble on twitter for claiming to be something I’m not”. If we stopped treating “feminist” like a special status that gives men (or anyone) credibility and power, it would be easier to separate rhetoric from actual behavior.
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Ditto.
Someone: Are you a feminist?
Me (a man): Well… yeah.
Although, to be honest, I think approximately zero people have ever asked me this.
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I know it’s boring and a pretty much a pat answer, but is there some horrible problem with finding a social activity that interests you that has a a moderate mix of men and women, make friends, and then hope that things gradually grow to more than that?
(I’ve been out of the market for 25 years, so maybe things just don’t work like that nowadays, but it seems to be working for my sons.)
Sure, it takes a few years, and there’s no guarantee of success, but it seems a lot more natural than hunting for prospective partners and you get to spend time doing fun things.
(I’ll admit the whole concept of a ‘date’ rather than ‘doing something fun with a friend’ seems weird…)
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quick correction, kilstein was asked to leave by his _ex-wife/_current co-host. they divorced in the summer of 2016
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Humanist, probably, is what you really are; if you believe that all humans should have the same inherent rights and responsibilities, no matter what your appearance, gender, belief system, or place of birth (or any of the dozens of more things people can and do discriminate against.)
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That’s not what humanist means. Or has meant.
Humanism is the belief that all people are valuable and that reason is the best way to solve problems.
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I’m with @ethicalcannibal on this being nothing new, creepy guys will always be creepy.
The interesting thing here is how many people seem to be turned off by the term “feminist.” I used to call myself a feminist, starting back when I was a child and saw Gloria Steinem speak on TV. It made sense that women should be able to do whatever they wanted and not be prohibited from getting an Erector Set for Christmas just because it wasn’t a girl’s toy.
I started calling myself a humanist sometime in the 80s because I was out in the world and met people who were also discriminated against and treated as “less” and weren’t white women. Why have equality for only color, or binary sex? Why not make it easy and say all humans are equal? Then you don’t keep having to legislate as old rich men are shamed into agreeing that one more kind of person is really truly a person. (So went my thoughts then.)
These days, I’ve been told that I’m not a feminist because: a) I’m married to a man & cook for him; b) First and Second Wave are not relevant anymore and I’m out of touch with the problems of today’s ladies; c)bitch, you ain’t a POC; d) all of the above. This is the problem with using labels that change with each user: the words can’t be a rallying point, because they’ve become so polarized and divisive. So I’m a feminist, simply by inclusion into the humanist definition, but I won’t be wearing it on a T-shirt anytime soon.
edited for typo
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Well put, full stop.
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Let’s be honest, you likely cook better than he does. (You, along with Mel and a few others have an open invitation to smack me :D)
And if I am being opaque, I love to cook. I am a provider.
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It doesn’t puzzle me (why people virtue signal is annoying but not mysterious), but it is why it puts me on alert. While not everyone who claims such labels is virtual signalling (some a sincerely stating a political position), many, particularly those such as Jamie Kilstein and others who use it to manipulate others for personal gain and advancement, are no more sincere than the characters in the SNL video. Simply put, be wary of those who toot their own horn.
If by game you mean search for a partner in life, I absolutely don’t know you well enough to answer that for you.
It’s a question I’m rarely asked. On the rare occasion I have been, it’s been a starting point for a thoughtful discussion. It’s not like I state my position as gospel and then ignore dissenting opinions. The people I gravitate towards in meatspace are the kind who enjoy unusual discussions. One can’t easily convey tone in text on the internet, but I typically reply with a tone that it’s just my opinion, whereas I think the default for reading a pithy internet comment is to hear it as brusque and possibly supercilious.
I agree, but you’d have to dragoon or blackmail those people into political positions since we’d resist to the bitter end. And then you risk a bitter saboteur in office. Wait a minute…Oh…Shit.
Makes sense. You can also say, I support feminists.
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I would say it’s several related but sometimes contradictory ideologies. For instance, it’s probably safe to say that all feminists view the oppression of women as a major social problem and liberation from it as the ultimate goal. But what exactly is oppressive and what liberation entails differs to the point that, while opposing camps of feminism may sometimes find common cause against common opposition, their means and objectives aren’t always fundamentally compatible with one another. And that’s just from the few dozen feminist authors, academics and bloggers whose writing I’m familiar with, which is only a drop in the bucket of the wider discussion.
If you have a personal definition, then you can state it as a personal position. But if all you have are the myriad definitions of other feminists, and you’re uncertain which is best or even what all of them involve, and you feel neither qualified nor entitled to create your own definition of the word, then why tell other people that you’re a feminist instead of just saying you support the liberation of women from social oppression? For the cost of a few more words you avoid a world of ambiguity.
That’s true, but then again I have very clear picture of the many things I consider just human rights. If I didn’t have my own definition of what it meant, I wouldn’t use it.
I think a lot of men do have their own definition of feminism that they can state unequivocally if asked. And some doubtless totally support all involved in someone else’s particular definition, which they can then use sincerely because it is their own definition too.
I accept that some people are going to be suspicious of me and/or my motives for not wanting to apply a specific label to myself. Which is absolutely their prerogative. But I won’t adopt a label simply to dispel suspicion. To do so would be dishonest, and mendacity will always catch up with one eventually.
I’m 100% on board with this. How do we get prevailing social winds with us on it?
While I’m not turned off by the term feminist - I merely feel using it to describe myself is bad communication - I’m definitely turned off by the exclusionary stance that some (by no means all, and maybe not even a majority) self-described feminists (men and women) have towards women. Dismantling patriarchy only to have it replaced by another oppressive social system is not liberation.
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I suppose that this is because while the basic principle is simple, that in no way lends itself to simple responses or actions. The splintering of definitions occurs at one step removed from the basic concept.
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