actually, slavery was illegal, in-country, in the Netherlands.
however, it’s clear that most of the black people in the netherlands in the 1800s were at one point slaves, or uprooted africans due to the slave trade. they became indentured servants, thus the black piet tradition.
it’s good it’s getting so much press and it’s good there is outside pressure to cause more discussion and from my point of view, change.
Just because they join in the festivities doesn’t mean they object to the criticism of blackface or don’t want that criticism. If that’s an argument you want to make, you need to show that these black/non-white Dutch are actually opposed to criticism of blackface. Going with the flow doesn’t mean you approve of the flow or that you don’t want things to be different. It simply means you are taking the path of least resistance. In North America there are plenty of people who object to how commercial Christmas is, yet the still buy presents and participate fully in it. Their participation doesn’t mean that they object to criticism of how commercialized Christmas is; their participation probably means they feel they have no other choice but to participate given current social structures.
I’m not out of arguments, it’s impossible to defend against certain arguments. I’ll never know what it means to be black so I can only refer to what I know from those in my surroundings.
Black people in “blackface.” I’m sure you’ll spot some haunted look in the fathers’ eyes that say he’s just going with the flow as camouflage against the surrounding savages.
Why “thus the black tradition”? There is no proven link between the Zwarte Piet figure and slavery or indentured servitude. The first depictions of around 1850 show him as a black Moor in an oriental costume. Later he is portrayed as a page. Both depictions are far removed from the reality of the colonies, either before or after the abolition of slavery in 1863.
You’re ignoring my point: just because some black people like something that others say is racist doesn’t mean that those others are wrong.
Watch the video that Pluto posted, if you speak the language – sounds like maybe you do?
So it’s less of a remnant of historical oppression, and more a clownish caricature?
Yes, I’m sure one photograph (which appears to show the soot interpretation as opposed to the full blackface interpretation) is good evidence that most black participants don’t want any reformation of the blackace tradition. And I’m sure if I showed you photographs anti-commercial Christmas shoppers you would see their thousand-yard stares, too.
Hey, maybe it would be conclusive proof of non-white sentiments if I showed a bunch of pictures of the festivities where minorities were grossly under-represented in comparison to the proportion of the Dutch population. I’m sure that would be convincing, and I’m sure you’ve been convinced by some of the anti-blackface videos, pictures, and links posted by others.
That knife cuts both ways.
It’s certainly interesting, I don’t deny the opposing view is out there. The most commonly heard complaint in the video is that of real racist comments like “go back to your own country”, certainly no one is advocating tolerating that. Unfortunately the polemic around Zwarte Piet also brought real racists and trollies out of the woodwork. The lady who says her son saw a Rastafarian and said “hey mom, Zwarte Piet” is pretty funny.
I’d be interesting to see a scientific poll on attitudes in all communities. But in the absence of that it remains a “he said, she said” argument.
Of course not. The best way for anyone would be for people to visit themselves and postpone judgement until seeing with their own eyes but I’m not holding my breath.
This argument is turning in circles. I’ll leave you with a lovely picture of children in front of the cathedral in Sinterklaas hats. Come to Belgium, see for yourself, have some speculaas, chocolat and marzipan.
Not originally though. The clown-like portrayal was only dominant in children’s books from about the end of WWII to the 1990s, i.e. after the heyday of colonialism, and perhaps also, starting a little later and for a shorter period, in televised appearances. He used to be intimidating rather than stupid. Perhaps it’s a localized phenomenon, too, since many who were born after WWII still remember him mainly as an authority figure, very different from the picture you sketch.
Nowadays, while he may be playful, I don’t think he is very often portrayed as a slow-witted character anymore.
That you find that merely “pretty funny” tells me just about all I need to know about where you’re coming from on this issue.
I’m done with wasting my time trying to help you see through the blinders you’re wearing.
Actually the kid on his shoulders looks precisely like how a lot of the opponents of Zwarte Piet propose to change Piet. Just a sooted face, no red lips, no wig.
So your point with the pictures is that black people celebrate Sinterklaas? And that automatically means that they agree with every aspect of it? Of course not. Moreover, if they do celebrate Sinterklaas AND they have a critique on Zwarte Piet, the cirtique would even be more valid, since they both see the good and the bad in the celebrations.
In case it’s not clear from the context both mom and the kid are black. It’s funny because Rastafarian hats are funny and he associated it with a dressed up character. Religions and their funny hats.
I don’t think this is the best method. At best it will lead to anecdotal evidence and subjective impressions. As a white Flemish person you will interpret things differently than I will as a Canadian, and both of us will see things differently than a black Dutch. Even traditional scientific polling, though undoubtedly better, will only be able to access the conscious thought processes of respondents, and even so will require respondent honesty (which is by no means guaranteed when talking about such a sensitive subject).
What I can say from 9 months from traveling through Europe is that it made me feel non-white, and non-Canadian, in a way that I hadn’t felt in a long, long time. In Canada, I don’t feel any different than anyone else I see in the street, and no one would ever question that I am Canadian or look at me differently. But in much of Europe, even amongst educated Northern-European youth who are not (intentionally) racist, nobody seems to quite believe that I am Canadian (I am half Japanese by ancestry, but in Canada I think I look quite neutral… though I can also pass as Spanish, Italian, Iranian, Kyrgyz, and Kazakh when I travel there).
Anyway, it’s interesting that even though you claim there’s no racism inherent in the blackface, you also recognize that there are a bunch of racists who support it and that it has been co-opted by racists. But if there’s no racial component, it seems like it should be difficult for racists to create a racial context wholecloth.
Ah, the “talking about racism creates racism” argument. Always so convincing.
As far as I know the Zwarte Piet tradition has never been used as an icon by any racist group. It was the protesters who drew attention to the racial component, real or imaginary, and since the most visible protesters are black, and are more or less perceived to represent a specifically “black” cause, they are not an illogical target for racists.
OK. Thanks for the info; I had imagined that racist groups had exploited the black Piets as vehicles for their views.
Yeah, dude! Racism and colonialism were uniquely American phenomena. Okay, that may be a bit of a distortion.But we can certainly agree that European colonialism had no lasting effect, internal or external, and especially that Dutch people would never involve themselves in anything racist.
Not what I said “dude.” What I said is that US society has had a uniquely traumatic experience with slavery the repercussions of which are felt to this day and it colours the way you look at these things. Which is ok, as long as you keep it that side of the Atlantic.
It’s like if you see a picture of the Semana Santa procession in Spain. You will see symbols of hate, except that’s not the message here. There might be similarity in the symbolism but the meaning is different.
Well, one indicator of the degree of racial acceptance in a society is the extent to which members of different racial groups are willing to enter into relationships with each other, and a 2006 study by Kalmijn and Van Tubergen found that Dutch society is relatively ‘open’ in this regard, with ‘almost a quarter of the Surinamese men and about half of the Antillean men … married with natives (i.e., Dutch born persons of Dutch born parents).’ These figures, which can be compared to those of the United States in the 1990s, where ‘only 8 percent of black men is married outside the group,’ and England, where ‘about 16-18 percent of foreign born black men is married to a native white partner,’ suggest that in the Netherlands ‘the black-white boundary is often crossed.’ They also found little evidence of socioeconomic status exchange, i.e., the ‘unattractive’ condition of being a member of a non-White group needing to be compensated by higher socioeconomical status in order for that person to be able to marry a native partner.
Additionally, a study by Smith, Maas and Van Tubergen from 2012 found no evidence for the presence of a ‘color line’ in the form of a particularly high risk of divorce for Black-White marriages in comparison with other interethnic marriages. In the United States, such marriages are considered the least stable, possibly because the partners have to cope with more disapproval from the social environment.
In my opinion, this type of data is much more relevant for judging the degree of racism present in Dutch society than the presence of a holiday tradition that happens to feature a black-faced character.
The sources are: Matthijs Kalmijn & Frank van Tubergen, ‘Ethnic Intermarriage in the Netherlands: Confirmations and Refutations of Accepted Insights’, European Journal of Population, 22 (2006), 371-397, and Sanne Smith, Ineke Maas & Frank van Tubergen, ‘Irreconcilable Differences? Ethnic Intermarriage and Divorce in the Netherlands, 1995-2008’, Social Science Research, 41(5) (2012), 1126-1137.
