Clinton's camp feared Joe Biden run, worked hard to kill it

Yes. Which is my point. It was a problem already, harmed both candidates and more besides. It’s hit national news before during presidential elections. But it’s particularly bad because Di Blasio was elected to fix this sort of shit.

The angle that it’s clear evidence of DNC “rigging” the primary is pure conspiracy theory. A spin on a legitimate issue designed only to bolster a particular candidate without addressing the actual issue itself.

That that’s the story making it out internationally is another problem.

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It’s like the pseudo-left decided Infowars was the sort of “news” organization they should look up to.

Then why do we need millions/billions to run campaigns? If voters can be relied upon to educate themselves on the candidates and the issues, then why not just have a bunch of free Youtube videos where they lay out their positions and let people decide?

It’s a wonderful thought, and I am not being sarcastic. I would love it if the entire population could be utilized for candidates, and not just those approved by the elite. The fact is though, that without party support, people don’t get elected to the highest offices. It’s not a coincidence.

Yeah, well, promises are one thing, but they often don’t last long…

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In every American community you have varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects. Ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally.

That’s been pretty disturbing to me. The activist, Far left (and mostly white) elements of the progressive movement have been elevating and validating a lot of rote conspiracy with roots on the right. We were hearing “rigged” out the Sanders campaign and it’s supporters earlier than we were hearing it from Trump. But it’s a long standing conspiracy on the right. One that’s been used to justify serious voter suppression. And now Trump is using it to dog whistle at violent insurrectionists.

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If voters can be relied upon to educate themselves on the candidates
and the issues, then why not just have a bunch of free Youtube videos
where they lay out their positions and let people decide?

I think we’re losing context here.

I was saying I don’t watch debates because I think the information candidates are trying to put out is better represented in other places (websites, for example). If some people think debates are better for that, well, I can’t really argue. But, that’s what I meant by “the information is out there.”

Yeah, well, promises are one thing, but they often don’t last long…

Sadly true. The world is more complicated than anyone wants to admit and people don’t always respond in expected ways.

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She won her first Senate race by an unexpected 12 percentage points, and her second by an unprecedented 36 percentage points. This is all voters, not just Democrats. I don’t know what New Yorkers saw in her, but apparently once they got to know her she was indeed wildly popular as their senator, which I take to be the point of @fluffitfluffit 's language.

I do agree with the others that the DNC worked hard to keep Sanders’ name recognition low, and that this worked quite a bit in Clinton’s favor. Had his organization been more successful in the year or two before the primaries (in order to get more support within the DNC structure, which is not all that hard) he might well have carried it off. I’m not so sure though that Sanders would have walked away with this race had he won the nomination. Trump already has a frightening 40% of the electorate who are evidently willing to support a serial sexual predator over someone as liberal as they perceive Clinton to be. Since Sanders is obviously a Molotov cocktail-throwing Stalinist even more of the US moderates might have been willing to suck it up and vote for DT. Also, I don’t know how well Sanders’d survive the kind of scrutiny that the nominees endure. (I’m not saying he wouldn’t, I just don’t know.) I do know a lot of people angry at his wife, and Trump loves to drag families into the spotlight.

For those here who don’t like Clinton from the left, surely there is some joy in knowing how genuinely painful her election will be for the rabid right, including the current Speaker of the House and Senate Majority Leader.

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no, what?

Well, certainly, but I’m not HRC’s advocate; you are.

Well, Presidents can get behind a legislative initiative. I know Bill did when they repealed Glass-Steagall (and yes, I know Hillary isn’t Bill, so we’ll see).

The retaliation has far outpaced the attacks, to be blunt. That’s retaliation that invites retaliation, especially when it incurs “collateral damage” in countries with which you’re not at war, and so it becomes a gift that keeps on giving. After 15 years of retaliation, not all of it particularly well aimed (Iraq most notoriously), all of it responsible for far greater casualties than the terrorists have ever managed, blaming the continuation of hostilities on terrorists is not particularly believable. Probably wiser to deal with it as it really is: criminal behaviour more than adequately covered by existing laws. Doing otherwise lends legitimacy to the Oh-so-scary Terrorists (and creates new terrorists). Unless creating new terrorists is the point of the exercise?

As for the rest, those were initiatives that happened on Bill’s watch for which Bill was fully on board (except for the War on Drugs - he inherited that, but I didn’t see any move to abate it). Now, as I said, I’m well aware that Hillary isn’t Bill, so we shall see.

I’m not American. Sanders is roughly equivalent to a Canadian liberal - left side of the Liberal Party, maybe, or moderate NDP. That’s not that surprising for a Vermonter. (Oh Hell, I hear Bill “the Spaceman” Lee is running for Governor on a platform of merging with Québec. I’d be very surprised if he succeeds, but I know where he’s coming from.)

I’m a little to the left of Sanders. You people tend to call my kind of liberal “socialist”. “Social democrat” is probably the better term.

My kind of liberal created the Medicare Act up here 50 years ago, so that now, after paying my taxes for a few decades, I can have my prostate cancer treated without leaving me on the street. There’s a lot of my kind of liberal up here: we’ll happily pay those taxes for single payer, and you’ll prise our health system out of our cold, dead hands.

My kind of liberal created the banking regulations that fended off the worst effects of the 2008 recession - we tend to curse our banking oligopoly, but there are certain things they just may not do, and those things, done by large American banks, led to a worldwide recession. We got off the lightest. (And that, btw, is why I bring up Glass-Steagall specifically. The knock-on effects of the toxic mortgages and toxic derivatives ended up having a disproportionate effect on “the little guy”. Very little has been done to deal with the causes, so the probability of yet another occurrence is quite high.)

Oh Hell, my kind of liberal backed LGBT equality a long time ago. Our LGBT community were the ones who fought and got the laws changed so many years ago, but they had a lot more backing up here than we’ve seen on your side of the border until recently (and you’ve still got large problems in a number of regions with the issue).

So, you want to point Phil Ochs at me? Be my guest. Your country was heading in the same direction as us in the '60s. Hell, even Nixon’s policies in the '70s were more liberal than what you’ve got now (much as it pains me to say it). What happened?

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That wasn’t directed at you. It was directed at @fluffitfluffit. I’m 110% on your side.

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Oops. Sorry 'bout that. <sheepish look>

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No worries. It happens :slight_smile:

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Stein is the one offering 80% of what I liked about Sanders, Clinton is closer to 20-30%. Maybe she’ll publicly say 80% of the right things, but I think we well enough know her private opinions on keeping the banks, fossil fuel companies, military complex, private prisons, insurance, etc. happy and well fed.

I also expect the NSA to double down under a Clinton presidency. We also know that she stands firmly against Snowden and Manning.

Her [current] stance on gay rights is about the only policy in my pro column.

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Wow, that would be an interesting choice. I thought they tried to keep him away from a lot of unscripted speaking events… :confused:

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