When have I ever claimed otherwise? You seem determined to put me down as supporting your own definition of MRAs, when I’m doing nothing of the sort. These are not men’s rights activists, and they are not blaming women for their problems. They are also not excluding women, but they are talking about issues that affect men from a feminist-informed, but mostly male perspective (and this includes many issues that intersect with feminist talking points). I guess it’s fine if you want to call them feminists rather than men’s groups to avoid the connection with MRAs, but it should concern you that you so readily equate the two based on the common word “men”.
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As I said, you cling onto one forceful, nasty narrative after another. What a piece of work, always trying to tell the wimmins’ what’s best for them and how they can appeal to you the most.
You haven’t learned a thing about how to be a decent person, just pivoted on how women should behave correctly in your eyes.
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Do you have an actual counter narrative besides “butt out” and none of your business? Because it is my business, and it sucks.
Which activists do you see most commonly in daily life? Which group dominates online communities?
You don’t need to organize into a club to be a better person/man, just have a base empathy for other men and women. Your attempts at counterexample just sound like more #notallmen kneejerkery. There are great men out there, but they rarely organize into anything of worth when focusing on “men’s issues”.
Butting the hell out and not imposing your will either way is actually the best possible beginning for your career on not being a dick to women, if you so choose to accept it.
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Considering I don’t wear make-up, “painted sheep” is hardly apt… I just don’t assume, as you do, that I know what’s best for other people. I don’t sit in judgement of other women’s choices about their body. I find it double offensive that you’re doing that as a man, when you literally have no idea what it’s like to exist as a woman in this world. It’s literally not your place to decide what and how we exist in this world.
And what you describe is not a make-up problem, it’s a consumer capitalism problem. You can say the same thing about any other sector of the consumer economy. Literally. Go watch Century of the Self…
What we don’t need, as women, is men like you passing judgement on us by what you deem appropriate behavior.
Also:
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Sorry, I’d like to make the world a better place and encourage people to focus on things that really matter instead of wasting valuable minds and resources on the beauty industry. It’s trash, run by trashy people and supported by millions of ignorant children who are inundated with trashy advertising from infancy.
Buying and wearing makeup is bad on every level.
Let me explain further-
“I like it when women x”
Opinion, still you and male-gaze centered, but at least opinion. Not quite a detached and independent opinion lacking in value-judgment, but slightly less horrid.
“Women should x to make me happy/comfortable/sexually excited”
Aggressive demand that indicates the speaker is a complete asshole.
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Then take the first step and stop focusing on stuff that doesn’t really matter. You come off as a churlish neanderthal when you tell women they’re being sheep for not taking your patronizing “advice”.
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Oh, no, no, see, as a man, he knows what’s best for us wimmins… We just can’t wrap our pretty little heads around how capitalism works, so we need him to mansplain it to us.
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That’s great. how about you listen to women instead of telling us what to do and how think in this world. How about be part of the problem instead of yet another mansplaining asshole, out to discpline women into their “proper” roles. How about you understand that it’s not up to you to tell women what they should do.
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I am talking about positive examples of groups that support feminism and seek to establish good role models. You keep talking about how terrible men’s groups are based on your limited experience, then flat out denying that positive groups exist or recategorising them to suit your view of men. This is not about #notallmen or a general approval of all men’s groups, but a couple of hopeful examples of groups that are working with women rather than against them and discussing important issues from a different perspective. I really don’t have anything else to say on the matter except that groups are useful ways to raise awareness and address issues that do exist, and I think we’ve derailed the thread long enough by now.
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Driveby troll wins again!
Can you find examples and link to them? I’m all about men who are supportive of feminism because they understand that its in their interests too. Unfortunately, whether this is due to a subset of assholes or whatever, MRAs have become associated with misogynists who just want women to be in their “proper” places. If the term has been hijacked, in your view, please provide examples of how that is true.
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How so? Because I engaged him. if nothing else, my comments stand as a testament to what I believe on this particular topic. I stand by my statements, regardless.
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We don’t know about the relationship between female and male Neanderthals, but they had a rich culture and shouldn’t regarded as stupid cave-dwellers. Neanderthals have feelings, too - please respect this and don’t put them an the same level as arseholes. Thank you.
Jokes aside, from my layman perspective the Neanderthal research is utterly fascinating, see e.g. this Smithsonian article.
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Let’s sidestep the back and forth and I’d like to learn. Let’s say pick the largest group that’s a good example of this. How do they have a male focus and exclude the misogynists? Do they have a stated agenda? What activism do they perform? How do they interact with feminist organizations?
My dad was friends with him. They used to have breakfast together before some class they took together. Pretty cool!
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Oh, I know. I. Know!
I want to see a remake of Being John Malkovich with Maggie Smith.
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I never mentioned examples of MRAs. I expressed concern that some groups claim to be about legitimate issues, but are actually MRA groups. If that’s the case with the ones I mentioned, I don’t support them. They don’t seem to though, and I think something like this would be important. In the case of International Men’s Day, it’s quite possible that there’s some of both depending on the location, so YMMV. Here’s where I got the “not all men” comment:
From the Good Men Project:
There are aspects of goodness that we feel are universal, and there values that our editorial team has agreed upon: We are working toward the goal of helping end oppression in all forms, including homophobia, racism and sexism. Those are our fundamental tenets. But as with any professional relationship, there is much we cannot know about our contributors’ private lives, and in no way could we ever endorse any contributor as good, nor would we want to.
The best we can do is look for content that helps break down the oppressive gender binary and offers new ways of thinking about fatherhood, family, relationships, work/life balance, race, the criminal justice system and more. We hope to be a place where readers can go from article to article and say, “Hey, I’ve never thought of it that way…” and learn and grow with a community of people of all genders, all races, and all sexual orientations who know that this is the time to be talking about what it means to be a man in the 21st Century. This is the time to take the definition of “manhood” and free it from an oppressive and outdated model.
