It’s the #Alllivesmatter of feminist concerns.
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It’s not feminism. Why is this so difficult to understand?
That’s great, but as you point out, they are not MRAs, so I’m confused as to why you bring these movements up when the conversation turns to MRAs. Is it that you feel groups that focus on men’s concerns are being conflated with MRAs and thus maligned unfairly?
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Is the “good men project” a social conservative christian movement, or am I thinking of another promise keepers-style group?
Anyway. If not, I’m glad that they exist. But their existence is not evidence that MRAs do not exist or that they are not a legitimate concern for women AND men. And again, men’s issues DO concern feminism. I don’t know how one could be a good man when not addressing feminism.
No, it’s because the conversation turned to positive men’s groups in the 60s who were in a mutually supportive relationship with feminists, and would also consider themselves to be feminist:
I can’t see that on the “about” page or on Wikipedia, so I think it may be a different group. TGMP claims to support a number of issues that conservative Christians don’t and it is quite diverse.
Please stop bringing up MRAs. This is explicitly not about them.
And that’s why these groups align themselves with feminism.
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Alright, fair enough!
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I couldnt help but be confused by-
“It’s not feminism. Why is this so difficult to understand?”
I couldn’t agree with you less on this. If you invert this statement - i.e. you look for the perfect female ‘ally’ that sexist supporters of the patriarchy seek, you could do a lot worse than ‘shut up and listen’ and likewise you’d probably be disgusted by the sentiment if it were expressed. So I don’t think that this is a helpful approach.
You appear to be misunderstanding the statement. Allies, male, white, heterosexual, should speak up. They should NOT speak over and 'splain to the groups they are trying to “protect”. And that is what “you shouldn’t wear makeup” guys are doing here.
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I mean that while it aligns with feminism and intersects with it, it isn’t a subgroup of feminism. I guess it depends on your view of feminism - while some would state that it’s just about gender equality, I think it is often used more specifically to address gender inequalities suffered by women. In any case, not all of men’s issues actually relate to gender inequalities at all, and would indeed be like #alllivesmatter in a feminist conversation - which is why they should be discussed in a different context. While men may be on the easiest setting, there are issues such as the ones I mentioned that affect them to a greater extent or in specific ways.
Promise Keepers and other conservative groups do tend to have antiquated views that are opposed to feminism. Art of Manliness isn’t Christian and has some good points, but it’s also way too traditionalist and essentialist imho. It does appeal to some people though, and isn’t shy about expecting men to be genuine and not blame women for their failings (or whine about their rights). So a definite improvement on many sites, at least.
My point is that the two are inseparable. There is no good man without full feminism.
I guess what I mean is that while I hope all of the contributors are feminists, the issues they discuss aren’t all feminist issues. Where they are related to feminism, there are other aspects to the issue that should be explored.
The idea that women can be ignored in the context of “mens issues” is not constructive though. It willfully blinds and excludes.
“Everyone needs to keep trim” implies that you believe beauty requires meeting certain arbitrary standards for hair maintenance. Unless you mean “trim” as in “low body fat,” which means meeting certain arbitrary standards for body type.
Either way, it’s still basing “beauty” on cultural expectations for hair, body type, skin, etc. Social pressure to shave certain body parts or keep hair to a certain length or maintain a specific BMI isn’t really much different than the social pressures people feel to wear makeup, IMHO.
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Its mythical because its built around a contradiction. Insisting that women meet a relatively impossible socially enforced standard of beauty, while simultaneously insisting that women reject that standard of beauty by ignoring things like make-up and fashion.
As such its really more about criticizing women than it is about a discussion of anyone’s personal taste in sexual partners. If a woman is attractive (to the speaker), she must be valueless because she is so concerned with here appearance. If she isn’t attractive (to the speaker), she is also valueless because she lacks a nebulous “natural” beauty. It also serves to explain (loudly and repeatedly) why our speaker has no luck with women. The good looking ones are all shallow and obviously wouldn’t be interested in some one who is x, y, and z. And those women over there? Those are just uggos.
In terms of arguing for an objective standard of beauty that’s sort of a fools game. The more time I spend with people (and in the vicinity of the internet) the more I realize everyone is hot as shit to somebody. You or I might think a particular person or practice is unattractive. But somebody (and probably a lot of somebodies) out there is furiously masturbating to the mere thought of those same people or practices. Its not really anybodies place to go arguing that those people shouldn’t be into that because reasons. Some people like make-up either wearing it or seeing others wear it, some people don’t. Frankly it doesn’t really matter, and neither you or anybody else doesn’t have the right to make anybody change their minds or behavior. I certainly don’t like the idea that women (and exclusively women) absolutely have to wear make up to be pretty or valid. But I don’t like the idea that women can’t wear make up if they want to be pretty or valid any more. Its all the same arguement really. Lets put an arbitrary condition on women’s value, one that is primarily derived from her appearance and men’s opinions on her appearance.
OH NOES CHEMICALS. THAT IS VERY FRIGHTENING I GUESS WE ALL HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU NOW.
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I buy my makeup from an independent producer who tests exclusively on drag queens and burlesque stars-
No OMGKEMKILLS concerns with their product lines (the lady who started it has a PhD in biochemistry, along with being nice as the dickens), no unhealthy standards to set and maintain, no shitty marketing practices.
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They aren’t being ignored; they just aren’t the main topic at that time. Men aren’t being ignored in a discussion of women’s issues either, it just isn’t primarily about them and there will be times when it doesn’t relate to them that strongly.
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Nod .
A much better statement than what I was replying to. I still believe to some extent that pretending one can ever fully isolate how men treat men from how men treat women is counterproductive but I’ll wish the best for them.
You can’t, and this is about focus, not isolation. I think it’s good for feminism to keep its primary female focus and perspective and it’s important for men to take that on board, but men’s issues can’t be fully addressed on that basis.
