(Old grumpy Europe visiting its relative USA) “Sonny, you know you’re not that young anymore when you’re old enough to be haunted by your past.”
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They?
here are more than 9 characters
The statue, built almost 50 years after the Civil War ended, is meant to be a memorial to Tennessee soldiers who fought in the war.
/slaps forehead. Dangit! All these years, we forgot to put up a memorial to grandpa’s generation!
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Didn’t take long to go full Godwin, did it?
We are talking about the disgusting and unworthy losers of unjust wars over people’s humanity after all.
It only takes so long for people to come out swinging for the side that claims certain ethnicities and races are subhuman
Is the comparison inapt?
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Does that make the logic of @LDoBe 's point untrue?
Of course, Nazis were an invading army in those countries, wherein the soldiers of the Confederacy were home grown. So one difference between the two situations is the white locals taking pride in their own, rather than the oppressed celebrating their oppressors… hmm.
The point remains, unless you feel the war they were fighting was “just”, why do you feel they deserve to be honored? Especially with the current… either “surge” or “exposure” of racism in this country, and the dark direction we are heading politically?
And yes, you can point back at the Vietnam monument, and just how unjust and batshit wrong that war was. But others bring up the point that it would be different if the monument was in Vietnam. And, again, like the Nazis in the countries that LDoBe mentioned, we were the invaders; not home grown locals.
So while the situation is similar, it’s not the same.
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Here’s the problem with going full Godwin; it’s the end of the argument. It’s check-mate. I couldn’t possibly say yes, I think that the common German soldier who was conscripted and died for his country in WWII deserves any recognition, right? But yep, I’ll say it - they do. Just like our soldiers who died in Vietnam. Just like the soldiers who died for the Confederacy. Memorials to common soldiers (in the right context) remind us of the sacrifice that we make as a country when we go to war, and remind us of the horrible consequences. Maybe if we were reminded of that a little more we wouldn’t go to war so readily.
And just so it’s clear, I am anti-nazi, anti-vietnam war and anti-confederate. I’m a blue blooded liberal. I just happen to think that it’s not a simple answer to take down anything with the word Confederate on it.
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Next time, a drone dispensing butyl mercaptan.
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Surely every state had some people who served with the Union - maybe you could have a monument dedicated to them if you really feel the need for a military memorial.
Though many to those who were enslaved seems to have more historic and human value.
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Or maybe a monument to southern soldiers who defected, or rioted? Or maybe to the African Americans who fled slavery and fought against the confederacy during the war?
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Working to get a statue removed: Good democracy in action.
Defacing a statue you don’t like: The opposite of democracy.
If unilaterally damaging what someone doesn’t agree with is acceptable, where does that lead?
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More like this, please.
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Created in 1903, during the 2nd wave of resurgence of the KKK.
It was meant to glorify those who took up arms against our nation to ensure human beings would remain as chattel property. The wind done gone. We can stop whitewashing the confederacy here.
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I agree with that. Rewriting/hiding history leads to people forgetting history.
But I see someone lashing out at symbols perceived to be racist as a sign that there’ may be a problem with this form of honoring the common soldiers of the South at some level. A level we may not be on if we are looking at it from a position of privilege or distance. I’ve visited the south, but I’m not from the south. And I’m white, so my experience of the south was likely different than if I had been darker of skin.
It’s also possible that this protest may not be about the statue itself; maybe it was just the nearest Confederate symbol within painting distance.
Where we’ve been headed for awhile now. Some form of reckoning, I imagine.
As far as vandalism goes, paint is more of a, “Hey! Pressure’s building!” kind of thing. It’s when things are being destroyed that the tipping point has been reached/crossed. And that can happen on an individual basis, or at a group level.
Have you looked at our democracy lately? How openly, blatantly, racist it is becoming/revealing itself to be? How does one work within a system that is stacked so heavily against them? I’m guessing this was less about trying to get the statue removed than it was about making a statement, in big red letters.
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First, Godwin’s law states merely that any discussion, no matter how germane, will eventually mention Nazis if they go on long enough. It is not a disqualifier or a checkmate.
That said, go and visit some small towns in Germany. Many will have a grey monument to those lost in both world wars. No mention of the cause, just a somber reminder of the men who never came home.
Now, since the American Civil War is seen as a war where brother fought brother, maybe an ideal monument would mourn the fallen and not say which side they fought for, maybe even coyly note that some fought for the Union for good measure.
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Loser
Unjust war
The Upper Canada Rebellion was a brief clusterfuck rather than a war, and I don’t think anyone says that rebellion against the Family Compact was unjust.
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You’ve given a reason for vandalism, but not an excuse. Would you feel the same if someone wrote “murderers” on a Planned Parenthood clinic? Does the vandalism need to match your sentiment to be ok?
Yes, I’ve looked at our democracy. Do you believe defacing things is an improvement? Does it add legitimacy or authority to someones voice? Would something more damaging add even more? Should they stop at property? Reductio ad absurdum, should we follow the most destructive person?
My view is it’s ok to support the underlying reason for an action while still condemning the action. You don’t have to support vandalism just because your agree with the message they wrote.
