I’ll venture out onto a limb of potentially unpopular opinion:
Let’s leave the statues standing
but let’s revise their plaques in dialogue with the local blue-haired historical society to discuss the problematic contexts around the monuments, the war itself, and the dangers of revanchist history
And then let’s put up counter-statues nearby to drive the points home: statues of Underground Railroad figures, animatronic fire-breathing W.E.B. DuBois statues, etc etc.
There is NO comparison between the Vietnam Memorial (the so-called “black ditch”) and monuments to Confederates.
The Vietnam Memorial is a monument to men who gave their lives in what many believe was an unjust war because they kept faith with their country even if they disagreed with it. They fought in a war that had the (official) purpose of defending an ally from takeover by Communists - in defense of the freedom of South Vietnam.
No matter what rationalization is offered - they were for states’ rights, they were for their state, they thought the North had too much power over the country, yada yada yada - no matter what you say about why the Confederates fought, the indisputable fact remains that every man who fought for the South fought to defend and perpetuate the inhuman, corrosive, ugly, destructive, heinous, foul, and evil institution of slavery.
No matter how you try to frame it in terms of somebody’s pride in their ancestors, the indisputable fact remains that monuments to the South/Confederacy are monuments to a defeated enemy nation that sought to destroy the United States of America. Monuments to Southern fighters are monuments to men who wanted to see the destruction of the United States of America and who actively participated in repeated attempts to destroy it. The American Civil War was a grand-scale act of treason and many of the Confederate leaders violated oaths they had sworn to serve and protect the United States of America and they should have all been hung as they traitors they were.
How’s about we don’t honor racists with monuments. Put up historical markers in their place. Because that shit happened.
So many questions, and with the likelihood of being able to change a person’s mind on the the internet being around 0%, I’m going for it.
I wasn’t aware I was required to supply an excuse. An excuse… hmmm… Well, I’m not excusing the action. If the perpetrator is caught, the law will have its way with them, no matter what excuse they or I might have. It’s still vandalism, and that’s still illegal. I wish them luck, especially with a crime of this nature in that part of the country.
If?
Vandalism appears to be your line in the sand. That’s fine. I’m just not that invested in making sure the brass is polished as the ship sinks.
I can look at acts of vandalism similar to this one (like your example for defacing a Planned Parenthood clinic with “murderers”) and think, “assholes” if I don’t agree with it, and “right on” if I do. I’m flexible like that, I guess. In both cases, I’m considering the actors and not just the acts.
I see graffiti as a form of protest, done to draw attention to what most people prefer to ignore. And as far as the gamut of vandalism runs, painting a surface is less damaging (provided the surface isn’t porous) than other options.
I hadn’t, up to this point, explicitly said that I’m okay with this particular act of vandalism. But yes, in this instance I’m okay with it. I’m sorry if that upsets you, but looking through the comments I’m guessing I’m not alone in that opinion.
I believe it’s a symptom of a deeper problem. Cleaning it up and punishing the perp isn’t going to fix the deeper problem. Defacing things also doesn’t improve the problem, it just calls attention to it.
I don’t feel like it’s done to add legitimacy or authority. I feel like it’s done to add volume when someone feels like they aren’t being heard. If they wanted to add legitimacy or authority, they would have signed it, ala “MAGA”. Only the opposite of that, obviously. Calling something “Racist” is off-brand for “MAGA”.
If they continue to feel like they are not being heard, it could escalate. Should they stop at property? It would be great if they do. Will they? That depends on who “they” are, what they want, and why they did it in the first place. It could have just been some person who was drunk, angry, tired, and had some red paint. Or it could be the start of something bigger.
Probably not, but this is a nation that somehow, through bigotry or crookery, elected Trump to the highest office. I don’t know if he’s the most destructive person, but he certainly isn’t the most cooperative/inclusive/reasonable person.
You don’t have to be against protest just because you don’t agree with the way they wrote the message.
Let’s diagnose why these monuments were erected in the first place: in the early 20th century, the resurgent KKK put thousands of statues of armed white men looking down at people all over the country. The purpose was to keep African Americans in “their place.” So fuck these statues. Melt them, burn them, hit them with wrecking balls. Because they are still serving that purpose today. Destroying these “monuments” is a righteous act.
Holy false equivalency, Batman!
That’s certainly one metaphor.
Here’s another.
In 1914, during the opening weeks of World War 1, the Germans won a stunning victory over the Russian forces invading East Prussia. The Battle of Tannenberg is a really interesting battle, for a whole host of reasons, but what’s most interesting here is what happened next.
As is well known (although the reasons are contested in some … odd quarters) the Germans lost WWI. Badly. After a few years of navel gazing they decided that rampant nationalism was the answer to their woes. In that spirit they decided to commemorate the victory at Tannenberg, in a typically modest Teutonic way.
Shortly after it was built nationalism in Germany spread like a social media meme, and use of the monument changed subtly.
Shortly after that the Germans thought they’d have a do-over on WWI. It all went swimmingly for a while. Then it really didn’t go very well at all. When the Russians took over care-taking duties of the Tannenberg Memorial they thought “fuck this noise” and chose to make a few landscaping alterations, with typical Soviet understatement.
Now, the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe for 40 years was objectively Not A Good Thing™, and if you want to have a derail I’m happy to agree with you about that. But somewhere else, because that’s not relevant to the story here. What’s relevant here is that the Russians knew full well what the Tannenberg Memorial was actually memorialising, and how it would be used in the future. They were exactly right to not want a bar of it.
How this story relates to this thread is left as an exercise for the reader.
[numerous edits to fix up clumsy phrasing]
Agreed. I’m not against protest. Nor am I against this message. How this was delivered, I see as dumb for being destructive instead of constructive. But what I find more disturbing is people celebrating destructive acts of protest.
Sure, it’s awesome when it’s something you support. But a significant part of the time, it’s going to be some idiot you don’t agree with. Painted swatikas all over non-pourous tombstones might be a protest to draw attention. Yet that’s obliviously unacceptable. But in their minds, their protest is no different than the statue protest.
I draw the line at any destructive protest regardless of content: It’s not to be commended. We tell toddlers to use their words when they get frustrated and act out. We can at least expect the same of adults. You got a problem, articulate it and convince us. Spray paint doesn’t add legitimacy.
And in the case of statues, guess what? Places are listening and removing statues. Maybe not as fast they could, but it’s happening.
And in the case of racists, people are listening to them rant, then telling them to get the F out. Maybe not as often as they should, but it’s happening.
Nashville’s Metro Police Department said officers would be reviewing security footage, the affiliate said.
Dear Confederate sympathizers…
And to the person who wrote murderer, they are performing a righteous act. Some might try to say one is ok, the other is not. The same logic (“My cause is just, therefor any act performed in service of the cause is also just.”) is used by people who are good and bad. I say the logic itself is bullshit. You may or may not have a just cause, but that does not make your actions just.
We shouldn’t celebrate bad actions in the support of good causes. It just normalizes bad actions in the minds of anyone who believes they have a good cause.
How do you feel about the Washington and Jefferson Memorials?
Again, look around you (assuming you aren’t surrounded by privilege). Things are slipping into destructive patterns more and more every day. When people are through with being ground down they will lash out. I’m guessing the emotion behind the message was anger, and anger is rarely displayed in constructive means.
As for “celebrating,” I hardly have my party hat on. I’m acknowledging the message and the purpose of the message. Whereas, to me, you appear to be focused on property damage and decorum. “Tut tut, we can do better!” Fuck that noise. Any time people have chosen to behave on this issue, it is allowed to grow and spread.
Re: “destructive acts of protest” see also:
Not everything that is wrong in the world can be handled by being constructive; especially if your opponent doesn’t give the tiniest of shit about who you are or what you need.
Right. And then I can either shake my head and walk away, or help clean it up. Either way, I see it as a sign of a bigger problem bubbling to the surface.
And the way to deal with Nazis (since it has already been brought up) and racists isn’t to ignore them.
Let me put it this way. Not painting “They were Racists” on a Confederate statue will not, one bit, decrease the likelihood of fascists painting swastikas all over tombstones, no matter where your personal beliefs are.
Whoever painted it did use their words. Bright red, and hard to miss.
Good for you! Let me ask, are you a marginalized person? Where do you fall in this structure we call society? If you are not on the same rung as the people who feel this is the outlet they needin order to be heard, where do you get off telling them they can be better than this?
Once again, and for the last time, I never said it does. It adds volume. Like the steam whistle on a kettle.
And to the people impacted by the presence of these statues, apparently not as fast as they should, either. Perhaps this can be seen as analogous to the person/people going around spray painting penises around the potholes because the city was too slow to fill them in.
Do you think? It seems to me, from where I’m sitting and what I’m seeing, the fascists and bigots are winning because they are expecting us to take the high ground, and we keep doing it.
We’ve gone around and around on this for too long now. I’m not changing your mind, you aren’t changing mine. I’m also starting to feel like you’re acting in bad faith with all of your arguments, and I’m done going in circles.
You are against this act of protest.
I’m for it.
Done.
The vandals should have used a bright neon orange paint. That would have made it much more difficult to remove/cover up.
There is a meme floating around (which, naturally, I can’t find right now) of all the protests that should never have happened because they broke the law. Rosa Parks, Boston Tea Party, legalisation of marijuana, homosexual law reform, …
It’s almost like sometimes things need to be broken in order to fix them.
Interesting story. And it highlights the oddity of Confederate memorials. Imagine the monument didn’t exist before WWII yet the Soviets allowing the monument to be built by neo-nazis afterwards.
Edit: Because JonS is right.
FTFY
(the alteration is important)
Deconstructing it to relativism is just a rhetorical circle-jerk. There IS right and wrong, and it really isn’t that hard to figure out which is which.
If only Forced Birth zealots limited themselves to graffiti, the world would be a better place. You want to carry that false equivalence? Fine. Think about what that means, though. A much higher body count than what we’re talking about in this thread. More blood than bronze.
ETA:
Harlem
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun? Or fester like a sore— And then run? Does it stink like rotten meat? Or crust and sugar over— like a syrupy sweet? Maybe it just sags like a heavy load.Or does it explode?
I don’t do things in bad faith. Ever. Honesty has gotten in me in a shit ton of trouble in life. Privileged? I’m American, which automatically makes me incredibly lucky. Didn’t stop my dad from being a meth addict, living in public housing, or picking up produce on the side of the road that fell off trucks to get by. And so fucking what. As tragic stories go in the great expanse of humanity, it’s nothing. Those onions were good!
You want to discount what I say by judging me, that’s on you. But don’t ever discount my sincerity.
You want to believe that destructive acts can be good, no problem. I can get behind that too for some injustices. But I strongly believe that some acts are short term gain, long term loss. I firmly believe giving a thumbs up to painting a shitty monument weakens us as a society, not strengthen us.
I say this in partial hopes it will give people pause and maybe think. Because this is MY protest. But with less paint.
FWIW:
I think this thread is near an exemplar of how our Happy Mutant community can disagree strongly on sincerely held beliefs and yet hold Discourse™ on it with constructive posts.
