Hehe, I know the accepted response is “fine”. My problem is it takes a minute or two to realise I’m supposed to ask something back.
If conversation is like a game of tennis, my natural inclination is to catch the ball and put it away.
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Haha I do that too! People ask me how my weekend is, I tell them. Then as they walk away I manage a “OHDIDYOUDOANYTHINGFUN?” LOL
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I found my spouse at 32 in the pre-internet “personal ads” with voicemails. I lived in NYC and had an active social life but rarely met anyone I was actually interested in. Though I had several relationships by that point I was also pretty inept at dating. I had been frustrated in the past by women I was interested in that only wanted to be friends, and I viewed personals as “dating 101”. What I found most gratifying about it was that we both knew why we were there, I had made clear in my ad I was looking for long term.
What’s bizarre about my particular skillset is that once on that territory I could do great! Sort of. The women still had to be pretty aggressive about physical contact to overcome my lack of confidence there, but it would happen. I also learned that what I thought was my type was toxic. Being attracted to “hyper and hyper-talky” turned out to be my confusing their need for an audience and attention with being attracted to me, and it let me be passive, my inclination. I call them “attention junkies”, who will do anything for their fix. I found other forms of crazy too, but I discovered you don’t need to date the crazy ones.
I’m slow, but I learned. I like to say I met a sane Jewish woman in NYC, and married her quick. She was from the Midwest. It’s been 23 years, and she’s still one of the sanest people I’ve ever met. We didn’t have much in common at first other than loving the outdoors, she was much more Jewishly observant than me, but our values turned out to be in synch, which is much more important than liking the same bands.
FWIW, I define sane as being able to assign appropriate value to the objects and aspects of life, and not let something negative happening destroy your peace of mind. This is the opposite of my mother, who I do love and have a good relationship with (as does my wife). Its funny that I married her opposite, but both my and my wife’s brothers, who both have troubled relationships with their mothers, married women who feature some of the qualities they most revile though they thought they were getting her opposite. Go figure.
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I’m bringing thos over to a more appropriate thread, if that’s okay with you?
Thanks! Another Victory! ( I like you, I hope you know that)
Seriously though, great first date and all downhill from there. She broke down in tears on the third date, talking about her ex. I wasn’t going to ask her out again, but she invited me, and I took that to mean she was going to try. (and then asked me to buy the tickets, and never did repay me for those). Apparently not.
But really, IRL I am a kind and sensitive guy. I’ve been a doormat in the past, and I do deserve better than that. But like, it’s not even about me. It makes me just sad to see where some people are at. To be told I am such a nice dude, and then have an evening ‘accitentionally’ torpedoed is awful.
But here is the dating tip.
If it’s new dating, go places you would enjoy even in awful company. That’s what I did, and I had a great time aside from the poor company! I’ve been making a point of meeting new people only at cafe’s I have never been to.
I’ve found 3 great bakeries and two stellar cafes, just this year!
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A thing I figured out was to make my own plans for something interesting to do after. Then, if I actually enjoyed spending time with them I could say, “Hey, a friend of mine is having a fundraising concert to take a play she wrote to the New York Fringe festival. I was going to head down there, would you like to come?” (In this example I clearly picked a thing to make myself seem more interesting than I am, but it works with anything, even just going to see a movie) Asking someone out to an event like that would seem intimidating as a first date, but it’s great to have in the back pocket if it seems appropriate.
Yeah, I found this too. I needed a little practice at a few things, but really once we eliminated the “are we romantic or just friends?” question, I was very good at interacting with women. I’ve had some real problems sorting out romantic interest in my life, so I liked that many ambiguities were eliminated. If someone was excited about seeing me again, I knew what it meant.
And now that I’m in a monogamous relationship, I don’t have to worry about that with new people I meet for the opposite reason. Everything coming up Humbabella.
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I haven’t done that. I’ve told a story about what someone else did. Full Stop.
Subsequent to that, and another layer - the second whammy if you will - comes when someone gives assurances and seeks investment, and returns invalidation. I don’t seek validation. I do notice and get offended and act against injustice.
The injustice isn’t the lack of validation, it’s the misleading whammy, followed by the second degradation whammy.
What I do about it is a third step. I don’t want to look past the first two and DO anything until I have a sense of what just happened, so I -can- respond.
That is not feelings about a lack of validation as I see it, it’s getting annoyed by well thought out or maybe even reflexive abuse. Bearing witness is what i do about it, as well as walking away. As well as separating all the moving parts because after isnt’ the only chance I get to do something about it. I’ve been badly abused by people I love, and know are not capable of different behavior. I was never seeking validation from them, as I’ve never had the experience of validation from them.
In no way am I disagreeing with you, I think I see more nuance, more steps in the process, and a difference between validation, no validation, and invalidaion. It’s not a single scale or a number line. Those are three discrete behaviors.
Thanks! I will never understand people who try to discourage you from wanting a thing just to get them off the hook of responsibly saying ‘no’. (or god forbid, no thank you)
I hang out with people and this is never an obvious trait until you’ve known them a while, and I find it un-naviagble.
Sure, some people don’t like to hear no, but if you’re afraid to say no, then you can’t really say yes.
So if you can’t say no DON’T DATE ANYONE until you have mastered ‘no’.
Right?? That probably belongs in the dating advice too. I’m going to move this over there.
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I had a fascinating conversation with Temple Grandin about just this. Her advice is basically throw em in the shallow end and keep pushing.
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That wasn’t meant to say that you personally had done that, it was an example of a possible line of thinking that many people choose to adopt.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:250, topic:96611”]
, I think I see more nuance, more steps in the process, and a difference between validation, no validation, and invalidaion. It’s not a single scale or a number line. Those are three discrete behaviors.
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That’s your narrative, and that’s fine. You get to process your world however you want to, and so do I. I don’t see the point in dissecting whether it is invalidation, lack of validation, abuse, or whatever it is that someone else has done that affects me negatively. I am more interested in what feels better to think that will help me move forward.
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A just a little bit ago I got a text from a woman that said something to the affect of, “I always lose the cell numbers of nice guys. I just refound yours.”
I felt happy for two powerful reasons: hey, someone likes me! And hey, regardless of me someone is breaking out of a bad cycle!
A total win for everyone 
Like so many chances I have been taking, we are both leaving with friends and better feelings of ourselves 
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agreed. Lots of people want to do anything but identify their own part in a thing!
from your earlier comments, your narrative, I got the notion that if it was a lack of validation then that would be on you, as you are seeking validation and that’s a bad expectation more or less?
Invalidation and abuse are not your doing (though showing up for more, is). But bad expectations contrary to what you can reasonably expect are your own bad actions. Holding others accountable for your own bad expectations is invalidating.
i think it matters if feelings are hurt, to observe the moving parts. Is the source of the pain my expectation or their behavior (paired with but not just exclusively my expectation of ‘better’ behavior) My pain isn’t proof of a darned thing, but it’s caused by one of a few things, and I can determine which through reflection.
Sounds like you’d cut off anyone who upset you, the way you’ve described it. Like you have the right to bad expectations of others? I don’t assume I have that right, though. Because that would be rude, it’s really a question and I am not sure that taking responsibility for my behavior and that of other people is the best way forward, peacefully. If I have to leave when I am hurt by someone, there can be no justice. How do you seek justice if your discomfort is always your own fault?
I was just reading about a guy who got upset because his best friend doesn’t want to marry him. He asked out of the blue, and told her she was “overthinking it”. He is being abusive, and hurting -himself- from it, and his ‘friend’ too. His ‘friend’ is the subject of abusive expectations and trying real hard to navigate and not validate his proposition, without invalidating him.
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I found that it was best to keep 1st contact to a minimum like coffee, not even dinner. I had had some endless dinners: “I hate my job but it was OK when I had a boyfriend because I thought about him all the time and that made the day pass…” Beam me up please! I also concluded to keep the 1st phone call relatively brief too after a couple of 2 hr conversations that didn’t work out in person.
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I do coffee in the afternoon, around 4 4:30, and if we’re still nursing that coffee two hours later, I suggest dinner.
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It is my belief that seeking or expecting validation from another in the abscence of self-validation and general well-being is a fool’s errand. Not because wanting validation is a bad thing, but because people just aren’t going to give it to you often or consistently enough to make up for the lack you are feeling.
Really? What specifically did I say that makes you think that?
Okay, good. If that is what you feel is helpful to you, then you should keep on doing it. I have found in my own experience, and in working with others, that relection does not always end in an accurate explanation of why I am in pain. Do you think internet guy in your post has made an accurate assesment of his situation?
Do you always expect justice and always receive it? If you confront someone in the pursuit of justice, can you be sure that you will get it?
Yeah, that’s all really shitty. But there wouldn’t even be much of a story if she wasn’t worried about validating him. What justice can she expect? If someone tries to make me responsible for their “bad expectations” and feelings of validation or lack thereof, and especially if they are using abuse to that end, there is nothing more to discuss. He is holding her hostage with his need for validation, which is exactly what I described upthread.
When I say that I try to focus on a better feeling, more hopeful story, it means just that. Not that I am excusing other’s bad behavior, not that am blaming myself. Only that I’m not going to spend time rehashing bad events.
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Rehashing and hashing are different things. I do hear you.
I’ve had dramas that I put away years and years and years ago that other try to revisit with me. Where doing the right thing (walking away) inflamed those who were already being very inappropriate. Somehow people still think it’s my issue, but like, I haven’t lifted a finger in that direction in years.
But I still have to put up with hearing about it, unless I want to be rude to people we know in common who don’t realize they’re bringing up hard feels.
But there wouldn’t even be much of a story if she wasn’t worried about validating him.
It does sound crappy, and I don;t have all the details, But she isn’t worried about his feeling validated or not. She totally said no. But would like that to be a no, but i might be able to respect you despite the aggression, if it can be hashed out in the moment. If.
What justice can she expect?
I’m not sure I understand, but I will say none. She can seek some, between them, and it will be there or not. For him to validate her feelings of shock would be nice, for him to not validate her feelings is another option, but he went for invalidation, and told her she was thinking too much - wrong inside.
At any rate, nice talk. I don’t want to talk past you or vice versa. I really do appreciate your perspective and thank you.
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Meant to answer this! I think I assumed that the ‘other option’ you discuss below:
is the walking away part. I think I did misunderstand at this point in the conversation, though. I guess I am not sure what the other options are other than walking away from a chronic invalidator. And that IS my narrative not yours. I haven’t found any ways to stop aggressors from aggressing other than ending the realtionship. Do you have other ideas?
I wanted to add that the responsibility you speak of there is a point of abuse for many people. There are people who DO want to be responsible for DOWNregulating your feelings, yucking on your yums in a less than direct way that is hard to point out - and will be passively and covertly aggressive to do so, until they get a reaction. Then they feel better. You can be as responsible a person as you like, a skilled manipulator can get a reaction rather than a response from just about anyone. I no longer feel real bad for my behavior in response to someone with a pathological agenda. Leaving is hard, but it’s all you can do. They’re creating an unreal environment, a playspace for themself, and you are their toy. This happens. Objectification isn’t just photoshopping, and I think you know that because you are a pretty sensitive person from what I can tell.
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Obviously we have a difference of opinion here.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:259, topic:96611”]
But I still have to put up with hearing about it, unless I want to be rude to people we know in common who don’t realize they’re bringing up hard feels
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That’s not the same as spending time rethinking it over and over. Which seems to be where some of our confusion may lie.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:259, topic:96611”]
But she isn’t worried about his feeling validated or not. She totally said no. But would like that to be a no, but i might be able to respect you despite the aggression, if it can be hashed out in the moment. If.
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You said that the basis of her post was her mental anguish over the position he had put her in, and that she was worried about invalidating him. At the bottom of it, he is imposing his feelings on to her, and using them as a weapon. Not playing this game does not mean the absence of a gentle but firm explanation. She could choose to address it in a variety of ways, as long as she remains firm in her drawing of boundaries and what she had decided.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:259, topic:96611”]
What justice can she expect?
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You said that if someone was hurt and they left, they would have no justice. I was pointing out that not leaving wouldn’t gurantee it either.
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The only thing I was referring to here was the internal narrative that you or I might choose in the face of something unpleasant and how you will frame the event later on. The action you choose to take is something else.
You’re never going to stop aggressors and “invalidators”, as you call them. And that is why I keep saying that the power is in the story you choose to tell. Because it’s one thing that you have absolute control over.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:260, topic:96611”]
I wanted to add that the responsibility you speak of there is a point of abuse for many people. There are people who DO want to be responsible for DOWNregulating your feelings, yucking on your yums in a less than direct way that is hard to point out - and will be passively and covertly aggressive to do so, until they get a reaction. Then they feel better. You can be as responsible a person as you like, a skilled manipulator can get a reaction rather than a response from just about anyone. I no longer feel real bad for my behavior in response to someone with a pathological agenda. Leaving is hard, but it’s all you can do. They’re creating an unreal environment, a playspace for themself, and you are their toy. This happens.
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I’m well aware of this, and stated above that I don’t play that game. Because validation and approval are what those people use to manipulate. It’s really what I’ve been trying to say all along!
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I think it’s a matter of when, that difference. Hashing out what happened yesterday and rehashing it two years later are different things, does that make sense?
I agree, outside of those with PTSD and those with bad character who know where their buttons are. I can say for sure that rumination does not make me happy, but it has made me more successful a person than i would have been if I did;t spend the time figuring out what is and isn’t my responsibility.
I never cease to be amazed what apparently normal people are capable of, but I’ve know a LOT more folks with diagnosed Personality Disorders (which are not a mental illness) than most - mostly because I was raised with skewed tolerances for interpesonal behavior.
When you grow up with people who tell you ‘that didn’t happen’ and ‘you feel wrong about it anyhow’… .it can feel a little condescending when someone tells you to take MORE responsibilty, because everytime you try they’ve been a step ahead of you. You can’t take responsibility for other peoples agendas, but you can suffer them against your will.
No amount of will makes up for people you’ve known for 25 years who have not totally disbelieved stories they heard about you. You can’t reason with someone who is fighting someone elses fight either, passing on rumors, and trying tio humiate you in every venue possible.
I’ve had someone tell me that they were paid to go on a date with me and behave awfully the whole time. They were an escort, but decided to let me in on the jig, at least partway, because once she met me she saw the setup for what it was… so… .i probably do have more need to have a more detailed understanding of what I should and shouldnt take responsibility for - as with some people the right answer is NOTHING AT ALL, and with other people it’s the more normal “be responsible for your own behavior”.
Thank you, again. I like your perspective a great deal, and think its of great value. I’m trying to add not detract.
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I’ve known some pretty amazing storytellers. 
When old friends stop calling because their wives heard a story about you and you’re now effectively blacklisted as the source of the drama you suffered…it can be a little less black and white.
I can tell myself whatever story I wish to about that. But a lie makes it halfway round the world before the truth has its pants on, and when vicious lies get told, your universe gets turned upside down, fast, right? That’s going to wear on one. That’s going to leave a mark that you can’t tell a story about.
You’re very smart.
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