Constructive Dating Advice

[anon68952647]

@Sagoli

Because validation and approval are what those people use to manipulate. It’s really what I’ve been trying to say all along!

And what I have been saying is that not caring what people think isn’t enough to maintain a happy life. I don’t care what they think, but I do care what the people they manipulated into distancing themselves from me, using vicious lies, think. Those people are also being fooled, to hurt me. Triple whammy!

Social Homicide I think it’s called in some places. This has to do with dating, imho, because a lot of people (again, I’ve known way more than average) suffer from those malfunctions. And you can spot them early on if you learn how. And if you don’t, they can ruin you. Don’t date a “Heather” or you will be Martha Dumptrucked.

If I become totally apathetic about everything, just to stop them from hurting me… who won?

I’d rather hurt and care than not hurt and not care.

[Sagoli]

@AcerPlatanoides

I never cease to be amazed what apparently normal people are capable of, but I’ve know a LOT more folks with diagnosed Personality Disorders (which are not a mental illness) than most - mostly because I was raised with skewed tolerances for interpesonal behavior.

When you grow up with people who tell you ‘that didn’t happen’ and ‘you feel wrong about it anyhow’… .it can feel a little condescending when someone tells you to take MORE responsibilty, because everytime you try they’ve been a step ahead of you. You can’t take responsibility for other peoples agendas, but you can suffer them against your will.

Your background sounds a lot like mine, to be honest. And I understand exactly what you mean when you say it feels condescending and irritating to be told to make changes when the other person is clearly wrong. But I think you can choose to look at that in more than one way too. Are you burdended with the task of controlling your own own feelings and story? Or do you have the power to make it what you want?

Thank you as well, I am not always as articulate as I think I am, and this is all the stuff that I apply to myself. Everybody gets to do it their own way.

[anon68952647]

@Sagoli

Your background sounds a lot like mine, to be honest.

I can tell. Not sure how, but I can tell.

@Sagoli

And I understand exactly what you mean when you say it feels condescending and irritating to be told to make changes when the other person is clearly wrong.

it is. But it’s absolutely neutering when the other person(s) has set traps down every responsible path you might take. Or when you go to someone for perspective and they’re in on it and gaslight you.

And there are those people out there. That’s something to be wary of in dating, for sure. In my case, one of my mistakes was inviting three somewhat not totally stable exes who I thought were over me, to the same party. Their current boyfriends, of course, were not at all upset about the part I still played in their heads… I had no idea. But life was never the same after that one party.

I think my story might be a great example of what happens when people don’t do as you suggest - what happens when a few people dysfunction and then support that in each other. It’s gotta be awful to be them (which is why I never retaliate, being them has got to be more punishment than I could mete out, if I even wanted to), but the effects of their holding other people (me, in my story) responsible for their behavior and feelings isn’t always obvious. The reason isn’t just because it’s bad for you, it’s bad for the other person too!

I think we are talking about the same stuff, more or less. I think the world is better for these sorts of conversations.

[anon68952647]

@Sagoli

I am not always as articulate as I think I am

You’re actually pretty fantastically articulate.

[Sagoli]

@AcerPlatanoides

When old friends stop calling because their wives heard a story about you and you’re now effectively blacklisted as the source of the drama you suffered…it can be a little less black and white.

I can tell myself whatever story I wish to about that. But a lie makes it halfway round the world before the truth has its pants on, and when vicious lies get told, your universe gets turned upside down, fast, right? That’s going to wear on one. That’s going to leave a mark that you can’t tell a story about.

That’s another thing you can’t control. Is the story true? If not, fuck that story and fuck those people who didn’t take the time to ask you what happened. Don’t let them define you.

[Sagoli]

@AcerPlatanoides

And what I have been saying is that not caring what people think isn’t enough to maintain a happy life.

It’s not, but the good news is that there are many pathways to happiness, none of which involve what other people think.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:265, topic:96611”]
If I become totally apathetic about everything, just to stop them from hurting me… who won?

I’d rather hurt and care than not hurt and not care.
[/quote]

Not spending time marinating in the bad feelings is not apathy! It is reclaiming your happiness by focusing what feels better. In my mind it’s the most caring thing you could do for yourself.

[Sagoli]

@AcerPlatanoides

I think we are talking about the same stuff, more or less. I think the world is better for these sorts of conversations.

I think so too, and this is a subject that is dear to me. I never get tired of it. I have really enjoyed this discourse.

[anon68952647]

@Sagoli

Don’t let them define you.

If I am the 5 people I spend the most time with, and the 15 people I spend the most time with have had their opinion of me impacted by truly masterful manipulators working together… Leading to people thinking you’re unstable innately, and not being constantly antagonized. That is going to define my experience of the world.

When you hear a story that you assaulted your ex, when you were there and you know the truth is that youe ex got drunk and fucked some guy and laughed in your face about it… and she has backup and you don’t. Your world is gonna change. And your friends would never believe that, exept your other ex said you hit her, but the real story is she threw a pot of boiling water on me. Sure, nobody quite knows what to do. But to say don’t let it define me is not possible.

I only arrived at any peace because I became a master documentarian and spent thousands on therapy.

I didn’t choose that. It was survival. They redefined me to my world, and they were damn good at it! I had to get a new job ffs. Better than I was at defining myself, apparently. Keep your friends close, and your enemies far far far away.

[anon68952647]

@Sagoli

Not spending time marinating in the bad feelings is not apathy!

Choosing to marinate in a bad feeling, and having someone deck you from behind when nobody is looking or slip you a mickey… it rather doesn’t matter what you chose to think or feel. They’re defining your reality, like it or not. In time you can find peace, exactly as you say, yes, by letting go and all that.

but when letting go was the impetus for you being abused, when they wont let go… letting go becomes harder than it should be.

Excuse the extreme comparison, but a rape victim can’t just choose their way to being a person who can trusting again. They just had a lot of work put in between them and normal. No choice involved!

If I hadn’t been a rape victim I’d really look askance at that comparison, but I think I get to say that.

[Sagoli]

@AcerPlatanoides

But to say don’t let it define me is not possible.

Friend, our time in these bodies is short, but I am certain you have a few years left to go. The story doesn’t end here, does it?

I have some stories of my own, of being manipulated, manipulating and loads of shame. Maybe sometime I’ll tell them to you. But I had to stop telling them the way I used to, because they were destroying me. And it sounds like you’re in the same process.

[Sagoli]

@AcerPlatanoides

Choosing to marinate in a bad feeling, and having someone deck you from behind when nobody is looking or slip you a mickey… it rather doesn’t matter what you chose to think or feel.

I don’t disagree here, I’ve said several times that shit happens.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:273, topic:96611”]

They’re defining your reality, like it or not. I
[/quote]

Nope, they are part of your reality, but they don’t define it unless you let them.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:273, topic:96611”]
Excuse the extreme comparison, but a rape victim can’t just choose their way to being a person who can trusting again.
[/quote]

I think they can and do, or else no one would ever trust again. And it they get to take as long or as little as they need to in order to get there. Everyone is where they are, and that is ok.

[anon68952647]

@Sagoli

The story doesn’t end here, does it?

oh heck no, but I can’t get the after perspective in the middle of it. Thus my mentionaing hashing and rehashing are different things, and taking time to own your part and differentiate it from not your part is super important. Letting go is best with manipulators, but not best if you were the one in the wrong!

We do only have so much time. What amazes me is how much time was spent on trying to make me sad, tbh.

So be careful with who you date! Some people will punish you for saying ‘no’ (and that is of course why some people fear saying no).

[Sagoli]

@AcerPlatanoides

but I can’t get the after perspective in the middle of it.

You’re going to hate this, but I think it’s the other way around. You can’t get out of the middle until you change your perspective to the one you want.[quote=“AcerPlatanoides, post:276, topic:96611”]
Letting go is best with manipulators, but not best if you were the one in the wrong!
[/quote]

Letting go is always best, even if you were wrong.

@AcerPlatanoides

What amazes me is how much time was spent on trying to make me sad, tbh.

Now you know what it feels like, and what to avoid. You’re stronger and wiser now, and you know what kind of relationship you don’t want. That’s a beautiful thing.

@AcerPlatanoides

So be careful with who you date! Some people will punish you for saying ‘no’ (and that is of course why some people fear saying no).

Solid advice.

[anon68952647]

@Sagoli

Nope, they are part of your reality, but they don’t define it unless you let them.

This IS a good conversation. I feel badly that we’ve derailed so far, but its good.

This notion of consent in this regard, that’s the violation. I can’t stop them. I can’t undo that dozens of people that I worked for literally 20 years to be community with now have doubts, but not because of anything they saw with their own eyes other than that I yelled at one of them once, in public.

People with power can redefine your reality. You don’t have to give them that power. But you’d have to give up on what you find rewarding, what drives you, where you work, whether you can date, etc… and somehow claim that didn’t change you - and that sounds like wishful thinking.

People can damage you. Your reputation is actually a part of you. You cannot control that, and I don’t know how one can choose to ignore what most of the people you know and care about think of you, and not admit you’ve let them change you. That’s not an important point, but to redefine that, it does seem like I’d have to abandon the old me… and wasn’t that their goal? Isn’t that them changing me? Standing firm is me. Not engaging is me. Not feeling badly about it isn’t authentically me.

I think there are alot of things you CAN not let change you. My rape, for example, it messed me up a few months, but didn’t make me weaker. In fact it made me more compassionate, slower to make assumptions, and a lot more protective of others who lack power. I changed me in those cases.

But no matter what i want it to be, i am no longer a guy who can have a party and expect 30 people i’ve known for 25 years to even respond to the invite. I am not the same person, apparently. All I did was say no, a couple times, to people trying to redefine me into the person responsible for their feelings (which is whatyou were saying earlier). I don’t want anyone to take responsibility for my feelings, I want them to be responsible for their behavior, and a shocking number of people will not do that.

@Sagoli

Letting go is always best, even if you were wrong.

I believe, from my experiences, that I owe the world one attempt at owning my part. If it makes nothing better, so be it. Let go. But gaslighting is so insidious.

Solid advice.

yours too, all the way thhorugh, though i think we disagree on having to consent to people wrecking your life. Acceptance is not the best way through that. Humility and meekness are related but different. I’m not meek, but I am pretty humble with humble people. And have got a lot better at finding 'em!

I’d like to help others with that. But everyone is where they are. I’m probably further along than you might think, but yes, we do seem to have been some similar places.

[anon68952647]

Know how this ties into dating?

I don’t hold my date Friday responsible for these well founded fears of mine. She has nothing to do with it.

In that way, I have not changed one bit

[anon26940528]

@chgoliz

Not that I’m suggesting the BBS be any sort of dating service.

Weirdly, I can see people thinking, “That would be interesting…” even as I’m thinking, “What a fucking disaster that would be.”

@Donald_Petersen

I met my wife through a personal ad placed in The Onion

Epic geek cred, right there. At least as far as I’m concerned.

---

I somehow hadn’t seen this thread until now, or if I had I didn’t really look at it but I was randomly thinking about this today… specifically the subject of “creepiness.” I’m in a long-term relationship right now, so I was mostly thinking about it in theory, following a related conversation I had with someone, and I realized that for as long as the Internet exists, I don’t think I’ll ever go out of my way to ask someone out in real life. The last time I did, it was incredibly painful. Not because I had been rejected, that part I barely remember registering, instead the socially awkward way I approached it just left me feeling like a total creep. I’m not normally a socially awkward person, but I tripped on that one and I could see the discomfort on her face as she rejected me. The rejection wasn’t bad, been there and done that, but I don’t like being the source of other people’s discomfort.

Fact is: You can’t have heard umpteen million stories about men propositioning women who didn’t want the intrusion and think of a circumstance in which you can walk up to a stranger that would guarantee you’re not being a creep. Nor can you hear umpteen million stories about “nice-guys” that don’t make you want to rule out your pool of friends as a matter of course. Work? Definitely forget about it-so not worth the aggravation if things go wrong for so many reasons that I can’t even count.

To me, online dating is 100% where its at. I say that without any sense of bitterness whatsoever at other options being closed off. Good riddance to 'em. I’ve had good luck with it, and I strongly favor it. I don’t think that we have thought of a good protocol for meeting people in meatspace that hasn’t been rendered fraught one way or another. It’s not that when I was single that I didn’t encounter people I found attractive (I mean I still do, obviously–because reality) but it was surprisingly easy to tell myself that there are plenty of fish in the sea, so to speak. Why take the chance that you’re just going to make someone uncomfortable who never asked for it?

Meanwhile, when you date online, you can find people who share your interests, pick up on annoying tendencies that would turn you off, figure out if you’ve got annoying tendencies that would turn them off, and all the while you have people’s consent to introduce yourself where your intentions are clear. I tend to recommend online dating to people who lament not knowing where to meet people. To me, that’s constructive dating advice.

Also: “Being yourself.” This is kind of like that line in Ratatouille that “Anyone can cook!” It’s true, just missing critical information. I’m increasingly of the belief that it’s not something that can be explained well in words. I think people kind of just “get it” all of a sudden through experience and failure. Being yourself really means just that, and also more than that. Sort of. Not constructive, but then there’s a certain zen to dating, too. To that end, the best advice I have about dating is to do more of it until you either get good at it or sick of it.

[Sagoli]

@AcerPlatanoides

This notion of consent in this regard, that’s the violation. I can’t stop them. I can’t undo that dozens of people that I worked for literally 20 years to be community with now have doubts, but not because of anything they saw with their own eyes other than that I yelled at one of them once, in public.

People with power can redefine your reality. You don’t have to give them that power. But you’d have to give up on what you find rewarding, what drives you, where you work, whether you can date, etc… and somehow claim that didn’t change you - and that sounds like wishful thinking.

Who told you you were going to go through life without changing? Obviously this where we have diverged all along. Shit happens. You lose relationships, people and things. People can hurt you, they can say things about you, they can judge you and condemn you. Those things will change you, I never said they wouldn’t. All I said is that you can’t control them, but you can control the internal dialogue and the way you think about it. And that is the pathway to feeling better and better.

@AcerPlatanoides

I want them to be responsible for their behavior, and a shocking number of people will not do that.

Yep, this falls again in the category of stuff you can’t control.

@AcerPlatanoides

Letting go is always best, even if you were wrong.

I believe, from my experiences, that I owe the world one attempt at owning my part. If it makes nothing better, so be it.

You can own it, and then let it go. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Sagoli]

I love that.

[anon68952647]

@Sagoli

People can hurt you, they can say things about you, they can judge you and condemn you. Those things will change you, I never said they wouldn’t. All I said is that you can’t control them, but you can control the internal dialogue and the way you think about it. And that is the pathway to feeling better and better.

I think I misunderstood you as saying that all the change should be self directed. It’s all ones own call. I better see your point now. And agree!

@Sagoli

I love that.

I love you. I love me. I love Mister Rogers.

[anon68952647]

@ActionAbe

“What a fucking disaster that would be.”

oh emm geee. Yes it would.