I have it on good authority that the CEO was made aware of the incident. What that means in terms of a response is unclear. The CEO is well known as being colorful and brash and has even gotten into a previous Twitter feud with a certain orange President.
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Thing is, in my case, I know how, and when, to stand up to officers. Because I was raised by a hard one. I know some of the language, and how to show respect for the office without backing down on the principle or giving them an excuse to interpret you as escalatory. If you havent done anything, they can’t keep you. They’re immigration, not the FBI.
If they can’t tell you what their authority is, then your compliance is voluntary.
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I keep imagining myself on this flight, and it always ends with me being carted off for yelling at the other passengers not to comply, usually involving something about defeating the Soviet Union and the Nazis just to end up rolling over like dogs.
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Encountering Customs/Immigration every time I fly to the US…
(minus the wine)
Shit, I will have to delete this account if I decide to travel again…
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If you listen to the language, they are always asking you to comply. Pull over there if you would. May I see some ID?
If there was any, ANY actual weight it would not be a repeated request. You need to hear those requests as wimpering pleas no matter the voice and no matter the repitition.
You are protected by the 4th and 5th Amendments at all times in the United States and they have an obligation to prove that you have broken a law regarding immigration before CBP can detain you. On a domestic flight where you have not crossed the border is ridiculous to cede them any control over you.
You should hear those pleas and answer NO every time. And if they ask for more you ask for legal representation and keep saying no. You have rights and it is your obligation and duty to fight for them. Call me up, I’ll stand with you every time.
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This exactly.
I’m a very westernized looking half asian dude, and have never been subjected to any sort of secondary search. A friend who is a sikh (born in the UK, US citizen), of Pakistani descent gets “randomly” screened all the f-ing time. The funny thing is that he works fairly high up in the NY transit dept, so he definitely has the access to cause some serious damage if he were an actual terrorist.
Go fig. Must be a weird statistical outlier, not a part of some weird larger racist thing based on skin tone or perceived ethnicity… /s
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Does anyone know if there were passengers who refused/declined to provide identification, and the outcome?
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Liked because it’s easy to be brave on the Internet (and harder to admit cowardice) and a lot harder when the guy in the uniform is in your face and denying him could cost a lot more than a few minutes of embarrassment.
I think I can stand up to some random asshole attacking someone. Someone with the authority to mess up my life in myriad ways? I am not afraid of dying. I am more afraid of having to deal with a life with no job, home or hope. Sad, but true, and I would be a liar to pretend otherwise.
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Needs to be redone with CBP people
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As much as I know it to be destructive to our country, I’d comply also. Because I am a coward. I’d love to be a brave freedom fighter, but I am not.
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Question from a foreigner: Do government documents from other countries count?
If not then how many billions in tourist dollars is America going to lose if this becomes a regular thing and how will that shortfall be made up?
Great way to potentially destroy your tourism industry there…
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known location for aqquisition of meth making supplies. Detane this terrorist.
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We already are seeing a reduction in tourist dollars.
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You are. It is in you too.
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CBP cannot mess up your life in a myriad of ways. Their patrol is literally the American border and unless they literally see you do some illegal shit at the border, the most they can do is search your car when you drive across and even then only with your permission.
If you are an American citizen you have no fear of them. They have no right to keep you from here if you have committed no crime.
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As an accommodating guy who could easily produce the ID, I understand where you’re coming from. It’s tempting to give into intimidation by immigration officers, but you don’t have to if you’re within U.S. borders. It is not being a freedom fighter to do the following at a checkpoint that is not a port of entry within the U.S.
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Turn on your phone cam or an audio recording device. Make it clear that you’re recording – it is your right.
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Politely refuse to answer a question like “Are you a U.S. citizen?” or a request to show ID when inside U.S. borders by immigration police
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If they ask you to pull you over to a secondary area, politely refuse.
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If they ask to search your vehicle or person, politely ask them to show you a warrant.
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If they persist in asking for any of the above, ask for their name and badge number, followed by asking what probable cause they have.
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If they’re foolish enough to present something vaguely plausible (e.g. “we think you’re carrying undocumented aliens in the back”), ask for a warrant to that effect.
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Constantly ask “Am I being detained?”, followed by “Am I free to go on my way?” Eventually, they’ll give up and let you go.
Note that these are border patrol officers, not members of the FBI or the ATF or DEA or state or local law enforcement officers. Note also that they are making requests, not demands. You’re allowed to (and as an educated citizen should) say no to their requests, and you don’t have to give them a civics lecture to justify it. Being polite and calling them “officer” and smiling will make them more likely to give up.
That’s a reasonable fear. An important thing to understand is that, assuming you’re a U.S. citizen, at the moment they have more to lose than you do by illegally detaining you or conducting an illegal search if someone peacefully declines to comply. In these situations, they’re the ones more likely to lose their job.
That may change, of course, but only if we let them change it.
Passports count, but if your visa doesn’t appear to be in order (even if it is) they’re going to detain you. Inside the U.S. the authorities are not allowed to demand anyone’s papers in random stops or checkpoints, be they a U.S. citizen or a foreigner who passed through an immigration check at a port of entry.
And yes, as that norm changes it’s going to destroy not only the tourism industry but also make the U.S. a less attractive place for academics, scientists, students, tech workers, physicians, etc. It’s already happening.
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Remember when it was funny that those wacky Soviets asked travellers to show papers?
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Analysis from the Identity Project (PapersPlease.org):
"… In the case of Delta Flight 1583, we don’t know what would have happened if a passenger declined to answer questions, declined to show ID, or tried to walk past the CBP officers and leave the plane. Some of the passengers might perfectly legally have passed through TSA checkpoints and boarded the flight without having or showing any ID, as people do every day.
It’s unclear whether a court would find that, in the circumstances depicted in this photo, a reasonable person would have felt free to leave without answering questions or showing ID documents.
The Supreme Court has also ruled that law enforcement officers questioning and searching passengers on a common carrier are not required to tell you whether you have to comply with their “requests”, or to tell you whether you are free to leave.
The only way to find out whether you are required to answer questions is to stand mute. The only way to find out if you are required to produce or hand over documents is to keep them out of sight and not to hand over or open your bags or put your hands in your pockets. The only way to find out if you are free to leave is to walk away. The only way to find out whether government agents will allow you to exercise your rights is to exercise your rights. Only then are you likely to be found to have standing to challenge any infringement of your rights.
So far as we can tell, all the passengers on Delta Flight 1583 produced and handed over documents that the CBP officers found acceptable, and were then allowed to leave. So we will probably never know whether the courts would have upheld the legality of the CBP officers’ actions."
More:
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I think this is the point in the “know your rights” video where I say, “Sure, they can’t do this or that, but… what’s stopping them?” I mean, maybe they can’t get away with doing whatever the want with me, but they can still do it. If I make a nuisance of myself, will they let me go on my way or try to make an example of me? If I refuse to bow and scrape, will they decide to teach me a lesson? I don’t want to get thrown in a cell, even if it’s only overnight. What if we’re not talking about border cops, but real cops?
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Nothing’s stopping them from asking, which is all they’re doing in that video.
If they try to make an example of you for doing the things I list from those videos, they’ll ultimately be the ones who are made an example of by getting fired in a very public way.
I understand, and wouldn’t judge you for it. An overnight stay in a cell would be worth it to me to be a good citizen and get some bad border patrol officers fired, and I’m far from a People’s Hero type.
To be fair, the chances of that happening to me are slim – based on my appearance and colour and diction, I might as well be wearing a sign that says “I’d sue you and win if you tried that.”
As I noted, that’s a different situation. Other cops usually operate in a jurisdiction that allows them not just to ask for your compliance but to demand it. They have a lot of other priorities that come before finding out your citizenship status, however much the White House wants to change that.
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