Digital guitar tuner for $5 with free shipping

Before I go all Muzak Theory on y’all, here is the basic problem statement:

Tuning is a logarithmic function which is started or seeded by a starting tone. However, standard tuning methods are linear. This means given a starting tone, say A 440, the note that you would call G4 in that context has a different Hertz than if you based your starting tone on C261.6. but in each context us less-hairy-apes call it a G4.


What tuners do is… To use a radical term… Ear fuck what should be in tune. A is not, and never has been, 440. It is a lie we all accept for expediency. And equal temperment can diaf.

i will try and give examples, and noone will care (except for perhaps @PatRx2 and @mzed), and i will also get these examples wrong. but such is the life of a blazingly good musician that gave it all up for family life :smiley:

Let’s take an imaginary note, A. A has a value (a hertz, but don’t get hung up on that) of 1.

There are notes we call A, B, C, D, and E. but how do we derive what they are? we do it from what are called overtones (and this is so fuckin’ simplified i should just go get a bagel and stop typing). The first natural overtone, given a perfection string or tube, is a doubling or octave. So the first note we can derive is actual A2, or the numeric value of 2. trust me, this will make sense in a moment.

the third note is derived similarly, we double A2. this gives us what we call a ‘fifth’. the note name is called E, and it has a value of 4. 1, 2, 4. Now the obvious problem is this new note isn’t in a neat sequence, so we need to drop its octave so it is in between 1 and 2. so we divide it’s wave form, and it’s numerical (fake) hertz if you drop octaves is now something like 1.5. (the math is completely wrong, i’m back of the enveloping this shit. don’t make me do the actual equations :D).

so now you have A=1, and E=1.5. You get the value of E by looking up the logarithmic function of overtones, and ‘octaving down’. but how are B, C, D found? well, the same way.

As you go up the overtone chain, and interesting thing happens. I will give a slightly obtuse example, but hopefully we can follow along.

Root note -> octave -> fifth -> fourth -> third -> minor third -> second -> (what we call a step) -> then all the fun microtones @mzed, @PatRx2 like to fuck around with. And by measuring them and changing their octaves, you build scales like ABCDEFG. and the tuning for each one, if you measure them from the starting point–A=1, is perfect and sounds harmounious.

(saving this draft, one second, the other shoe will drop in a mo)

okay, back.

here is where things get fun. the moment you start your tuning with a note that is say E=1.5, and do the same logarithmic calculations, all the notes don’t match A=1. They just don’t. Some are close (fifths and fourths are usually close, thirds, are usually off by what, 8 cents, and minor sevenths are off by a whopping 17 cents in general), so to play in tune, you must be acutely aware of the context of what key you are playing in. Do you bend a seventh, or do you play it equally tempered?

to backtrack a tiney bit and explain a term: equal temperament is the concept that you take an octave–A1 through A2, and you literally divide the hertz by an arbitrary number. In the US it is usually 12, as seen on pianos with their black and white keys. There are many, many others, but really noone that isn’t a theory nerd has ever seen or heard of them :smiley:

So this is why I hate tuners. They recommend that you play out of tune, in a specific way, that millions of people have accepted as ‘good enough’. But it has a couple of effects:

  • When you hear a ‘good enough’ tuned song, you say, “I like that”
  • When you hear a properly tuned song, you say, “I really felt that”

So I encourage all of you to buy a snark, a korg, a tuning fork, etc. it is a great way to start training. but the mind blowing enlightenment is when a single oboe quietly sounds a perfect note, and 40+ people all come together in serious, perfect harmony.

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So, essentially, given 12 notes (incl. half-notes) per octave, the next note frequency in the interval is the previous note times 21/12 (or, times 1.0594631)? And the next overtone (harmonic) is the note freq times 1.059463112, or times 2? And the n-th step above tone with f(x) is f(x+n)=f(x)*1.0594631n?

And holding to these ratios, we can choose any arbitrary frequency and end up with something that can be listened to without sounding like cats being tortured?

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I’m not a microtonal monkey, although I’ll admit to preferring unequal temperaments. :wink:

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that is a devils bargain we have agreed on. the real next note isn’t a twelfth, is it derived from the log function of overtones (doubling and doubling and doubling of the wave form). and even that is simplistic, since it isn’t always a perfect doubling :smiley: dontcha love analog wave forms?

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gawd they are so much better. just now which music you are playing, and drop your thirds, sixths, sevenths, and minors appropriately. rotating key changes make it fun though (i’m looking at you, mr. coltrane)

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An expensive solution:

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That’s what I mean, a 12th root of two. Multiplying, not adding. And if we multiply this number with itself twelve times (power of 12), we get 2.

Gets much simpler when we work in the log scale.

Why not perfect doubling of the overtones?

how long of an explanation would you like? :smiley: Benade and Boehm go into it in excruciating detail. but the readers digest version is, “lumpy, real world objects are unlike perfectly spherical cows in a vacuum” :imp:

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can you give a twitter-sized explanation? I’m sure I can stand a few dozens characters more

buy a snark, and play music. don’t worry bout my ruminations :smiley:

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so, here is an instrument that is trying to solve the problem i expressed.

notice the frets have a fanned angle. this is done to correct a number of problems, but in this case it is the mistuning of strings based on their string gauge (the thickness of the string). fretless instruments don’t have this problem, but it is up to the operator (i.e. musician) to figure out within a micron where to put their finger. more pics in a mo’

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The difficulty is that, for instance, the second overtone, the twelfth, is 3/2 the fundamental frequency for an ideal instrument. Overtones fit in a geometric series, i.e., rational numbers. Try coming up with that with 12th roots of 2.

Equal temperament is a compromise that closes the cycle of fifths (and not the sole temperament that does so by any means). If you were to try to create a chromatic scale by tuning with perfect fifths, you’d find very quickly that C♮ ≠ B♯.

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While this is a crude (not to be demeaning, but it gets waaay more complex) illustration of the problem of tuning, I think this is accessible to most people who understand how waves or analog patterns work.

There is an entry point, a section the causes acceleration (the air channel), and a differential split (the embouchure hole) that sets up the standing wave. Everything would be perfect for that wave, it would be exceedingly close to a Sine… except… there are holes in the bore.

The holes are there to play more than one note (or in the case of bugles more than just their overtone series). but they add turbulence to what could have been a laminar flow. the upside to a turbulent flow in a channel like this is it adds odd overtones, and color to the sound. that is why a saxophone sounds like a sax, and an oboe sounds like an oboe.

the downside is you will never play in tune, ever, unless you train your ears and technique. just as @mzed alluded to. you have to force an imperfect wave to do what you want it to do, on an imperfect instrument, and usually not ideal conditions.

so buy a snark, but keep in mind it is as authoritative as a book written 2000 years ago.

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jebus that is an amazing fret job. my hands ain’t steady enough to cut those grooves :smiley:

it feels kinda ‘ivory tower’-ish, except most people just don’t care :smiley: and i’ll talk about it all day long, “A triple flat isn’t the same thing G#, damnit!!”

Would it be fair to summarize your position as: the Well Tempered Scale is a compromise. I refuse to compromise!

Your objection is not to tuners, but to the tunings we typically use, no? Don’t blame the tuner, blame the scale.

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Guitar tuners that permit you to alter the A, will show the A they’ve based all of the notes on. It’s not showing you the frequency of the note your playing, and it’s not showing you the ideal frequency of the note it’s playing. So there’s no photoshop involved. That’s what it would look like.

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I’m tempted to ask “Which well-tempered scale?” There are considerably more than one, from Werckmeister III to Vallotti to French ordinaire to equal temperament, and so forth.

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Yes, and they’re all compromises, no?

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Yup. To make more than one key available, you have to detune at least some of the fifths a bit, and the other intervals are also off. (Even just temperament by absolutely perfect fifths does the latter.)

I kind of think @japhroaig realises that - he’s been pointing out that tuning in general is a kind of social construct that mediates between ideal harmonics and what imperfect instruments can actually create. I’d go so far as to add that the requirements of creating an art form with pitched noise also necessitates that it be a social construct: overtone-based monophony is capable of only so much complexity.

Edit: Monophony, not monody. I need another coffee…

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