HOW DARE THEY?!?
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For the last time, the offense wasn’t brought on by “kids wearing costumes of those exact same characters.” Thus the continued sales of the Moana dress.
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Just so we’re clear, is your argument that for a company with a caucasian person as its CEO to make films celebrating any culture but a white, anglo-saxon one is participating in “cultural appropriation”, even if the actual filmmakers are of the culture they’re celebrating? This seems like you’re moving the goalposts way outside of the stadium and somewhere off into another galaxy.
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Thankfully the history of Greenface as a staple of American entertainment is slightly less problematic.
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No, my argument is that humans are inconsistent, and that it is ironic to give multibillion-dollar for-profit corporations a pass, but not little kids.
That’s just your non-green privilege talking.
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There’s no particular problematic history of “Polynesian-face” in American entertainment either, though. (unless you think pitch black skin and giant ruby red lips is somehow relevant to polynesian appearances)
This is superficially similar to something that has a problematic history if you conflate “polynesian” and “african”, but are you making a serious argument here that it’s actually part of the black face tradition?
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A pass for what? Making a movie about Polynesian culture, starring actual Polynesian people and made by Polynesians?
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That’s a thing I was also thinking and pondering. And I would totally agree in a perfect world. Combined with this: [quote=“GlyphGryph, post:139, topic:85931”]
They can go to the store, they can see a bunch of costumes with explicitly white skin (Tarzan, Hercules, basically any white character with significant muscles that shows skin will have skin fabric), and those are apparently alright
[/quote]
But it’s not that simple. People are offended and hurt. And I only try to understand and listen, and I am in no place or position to give any judgement from my white, European, female view point.
But maybe just dream about a world wherein everybody, no matter what gender or background or origin, can be or play (dress like) what they want.
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Wouldn’t this be institutional racism? The tone deafness that comes from decisions made on financial rather than social considerations will always cater to the dominant culture’s interests and /or viewpoint without the need for villainous intent.
(Which I realize is sort of your point)
I have no reason to believe Disney didn’t think this was the right way. Maybe there just isn’t a right way for a multinational corporation to earn a profit at every turn.
I’m genuinely curious, Are you Polynesian?
Because from this quote I get that you are either:
A) Not (because of the use of the word “their”)
B) Somehow an expert on their opinions.
C) Yes you are. (This would somehow make you an expert in their opinions)
Only C makes any sense though there’s no evidence to back it up from your posts, and A and B would render your own rebuke meaningless. (Not because you’re assumptions are right, but because you made them)
See, I get your point, (I don’t agree with it) but I really do, but then this doesn’t make sense, if it is a bigger deal for middle-class westerners than it is for Pacific Islanders, that does not mean that it is not enough of a big deal for Pacific Islanders to complain about. Hell, this holds true even if there isn’t full agreement by Pacific Islanders.
That sounds like the drumpf political platform in a nutshell 
But seriously, It was put out on sale, FTA
“We sincerely apologise and are pulling the costume from our website and stores.”
All in all, this is not the worst problem Disney could have and not the most racist costume they could have come up with, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they calculated the risk/reward of putting this out there vs not, and agreed that the end result was worth it.
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A pass for corporate profit off of Polynesian culture, for one.
So, again, you’re saying that the only appropriate stories for Disney to profit from are ones that are of its corporate leadership’s race (i.e., white and American), and that making movies about any other cultures, even if the actual filmmakers are of that culture, is inappropriate and “cultural appropriation”. Understood.
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I don’t think anybody here has said that little kids are being racist for wanting to dress up like a cartoon character.
After all, isn’t it the multibillion-dollar corporation the one on the hook for making and selling the costume?
They’re getting a pass for making a movie, (Which to be fair, might not deserve it, we’ll have to wait and see it to know.) but not for selling a brown skin costume which people complained about.
That seems awfully fair. Pointing out a specific example of a bad depiction of a minority character.,
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Oh, I don’t question their sincerity, I believe their “outrage” is sincere, yet often misguided. I question whether or not they take the time to objectively read/listen to what someone is saying before deciding that the person is “against them” or “wrong” and see an opportunity to unleash the attack speech they have been rehearsing for just such an occasion… An occasion which they often have only constructed in their own perception by distorting the statements/positions of those who are sometimes even on their side of the issue.
But, again, you clearly have deemed me to be in a certain light so, like in those cases, trying to explain myself repeatedly will just fall on deaf ears as you have decided a few posts ago in this exchange that I am wrong and shouldn’t have mouthed off about it.
Like I said when initiating this… no matter what you say, someone is going to take issue with it (or misconstrue it). And when you honestly are trying to be a good, supportive, contributing and “better person each day” that is disheartening.
As I understand it institutional racism still requires more than apathy, it requires assumptions made about a race or culture. Again as I understand it, it would be putting this costume up and then the blurb description would emphasis stereotypes - Polynesians are violent savages with a natural charisma or something similar. Or if they just used the same white models for all the costumes.
Disney, by all indications, have regularly invested in communicating with Polynesian groups and has hired Polynesian actors and crew for this project. They have been putting a lot of effort in more than just the making and marketing, so to just assume that this was a white guy in a tower chomping on a cigar saying kids love those exotic tattoos is a lot of assumptions.
My point is that there is no proof if Disney made this decision the right or wrong way, and even if they tried to make it with the backing of Polynesian consultants it is complex enough of an issue that they may have been led to believe something was OK when the feedback by the public show it is not.
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As some have said, i think this is a situation where you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
I am uniquely aware that i tend to get wrapped up in my own thoughts and opinions. I can say that i don’t mind going back and forth with you and others on this issue, i don’t take it personal and i don’t pretend to be right. I find this subject frustrating as you’ve mentioned but i do appreciate your opinion on it even if we don’t fully see eye to eye.
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Has anyone addressed WHY they are hurt?
I get that we have the history of black face. But this is not black face. Certainly one can make a costume that is horribly racist and offensive in the portrayal of a POC. But this is not that either. Shouldn’t the context matter?
I mean, wanting to emulate a beloved character is the complete opposite of the original black face. Does no one else look at this and go, “Wow, for hundred of years people used these portrayals only to ridicule and mock - that they were not someone you would want to be. Now these characters are giving people someone to look up to and aspire to be. Someone to emulate and love.” So I don’t understand why that would offend someone. They love this character so much or relate to it, they want to be it for a day. Isn’t this what people have been striving for? Three dimensional characters of POC who aren’t just stereotypes but inspiring characters?
And again, I am also thinking how brown/black boys - especially hefty ones - would have an even closer relationship with the character. Someone they can see themselves in.
Coincidentally we had a similar thread on a cosplay FB group, only it was white people wanting to play a black character (Storm). I actually cautioned people’s responses because I imagine most of the younger folks hadn’t even heard of black face. The consensus, even among POC, was that it was cool to play who you want. One person recommended to avoid coloring skin the tone of any other human. So green, blue, stark white, etc was fine. Even black for a Drow was ok. Though I suspect some people might feel this is black face, in the context of a fantasy race it is not. But painting is obviously a whole different ball park than this costume. I am curious their thoughts on this, but it hasn’t come up yet.
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I simply don’t know.
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I’m sorry if this seems unkind, but that’s some industrial grade projection right there.
The only light I see you in is what you’ve said in your comments, that of your confident assumption that people disagreeing with you or asking you questions are rabid white knights who stay up nights planning what to say to you. Guess what, you’re not that important, none of us are. And if that is what you call attack speech, or indeed if you think any of what has been said so far in this thread is attack speech, then you’re definition of attack is almost completely different from mine, which is your prerogative, but don’t be surprised when your definition gets scoffed at. But, as I said in my initial reply to you, if you’re talking about the general lack of civility that prevails in so many online communities, I sympathize as other places on the web are rife with, as you say, disheartening attacks.
Since you declined to specify whether you meant the kind of discourse going on here, the question remains open for you to answer or continue to ignore, as is, again, your prerogative.
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No, I’m not Polynesian, nor do I claim to know what they feel about this. From your statements I can gather you are not either and therefore I couldn’t care less about your opinion on the offensiveness of this costume, but you are entitled to one and this is the place to voice it. Since I’ve first commented I did see some articles showing comments from presumably real Polynesians and there are mixed feelings within that culture. Some offended and calling it racism, and others not at all offended. These are the opinions that matter (to me) as well as the intent of the company that made this product which it seems most assume was driven by profit. I stand by my point that a white person making a decision that something is racist and offensive to a culture and then making a knee jerk decision to remove something on the market to ensure that culture is not offended is in it’s own way a sort of racism. It’s making an assumption about a culture’s viewpoint without actually getting their viewpoint. If actual Polynesian people complained to Disney to get this removed then that’s fine in my book and removing it was probably the right decision.
But let’s now think how this might have gone down at Disney. This is another big cartoon movie release and I will go ahead and presume that the Polynesian people and culture are celebrated in this movie. Almost all the voice actors are actual Polynesian people (good on ya there Disney). One can assume that many children will fall in love with this character and with the release happening so close to Halloween they will want to dress up as him for Halloween. So now what is Disney to do? I’m just playing out what might have happened in that meeting about ‘what to do’ here. How do we let kids dress up as a Polynesian character that only wears a skirt and has tattoos? One or more people say there’s no way to do that without offending someone. Ok, so don’t release a costume. But wait, so then they are racist because they didn’t make a costume for the brown skinned character. Hmm, so let’s just release a skirt and temporary tattoos! Sure, parents will love that idea. Plus the kids then go with just a grass skirt and bare skinned everywhere else, in October, good idea. I suspect many other ideas were thrown around in ‘that meeting’ and this one is what they came up with. So I’m back to my original comment on all this, damned if you do/damned if you don’t. I would even like to believe that they got input from actual Polynesian representatives based on the sensitivity to and involvement from that entire community with the rest of the movie. But of course, I could be totally wrong and this was all one or more person’s idea with the sole intent of getting something out there and making a profit. I tend to think more of people, even in the large corporate culture, and not assume the worst of people. Except for white people that assume offensiveness for other cultures, I think of them as the some of the worst people.
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