Door Game Meta Topic

games
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Now that I’m not at work, and I literally picked up two (2) slices of pizza on the way home, scarfed them, had a rye, and working my way through a beer made within the county, let me offer another observation for your esteemed consideration.

There’s a difference between Over-Complication and Balance Issues

Over-Complication is the opposite of simplification. Over-complication is when I tried to figure out my first repair bill. Here was my thought process

1- I took damage.
2- First spending priority is healing to full.
3- Looks like I need to buy a repair kit before I can “drive over healing packs and heal”
4- There are two separate prices for repair kits
5- Discounted repair kits can’t be re-sold
6- But, since I made a pact with mechanic before the mission, can HE buy it at wholesale to repair ME or is that really re-selling?
7- Not sure, but it looks like that’s not ok. Rather than wrangle with the GMs about the rules, I’m going to go with buying the higher price retail kit from Stretch
8- Ok, now time to heal. How many heals can I get from my medic?
9- I need to calculate to 75%. What’s 75% of 55
10- uses calculator
11- what do I do with fractions
12- reads about rounding up
13- ok now how much more health do I need from Stretch
14- uses calculator
15- and what will that cost (x2)
17- but I can’t pay in fractions of LP
18- bluff bargain to pay for N HP but receive N+1 HP
19- now what else can to buy…

Over-complication is when the cognitive tasks of analysis and decision-making outweigh the creative tasks of saying “given those dice-rolls, now what.” I don’t want driving-over-health-packs, but I also don’t want to use a calculator more than once for one purchase. I like to be able to eyeball things on first read, then go back with a sharpened pencil for the final decision.

Too much over-complication is bad for several reasons

  • raises the bar for for casual players or people short on time. If you
    don’t know what option is favorable at a glance, you end up patrace
    being the ONLY person picking option 1a which is explicitly called
    THE HARD WAY
  • Makes it exponentially more difficult for people who like to play the metagame, of which @bizmail_public is the exemplar. For every individual analysis that individual players make (such as an 18-step heal process), metagame players need to do the same analysis across the a playerbase of 25. And that’s just to heal, not to mention FP and AR and ETC compared across 3 missions. No wonder Bubba’s crying uncle. Now, I don’t like to play the game the same way that he does, to be sure. I don’t care much for min-maxing at all (unless I’m playing Skyrim), let alone across all players across all missions. I’d rather do me, tell some tales, and then mosey on. But I sure as hell appreciate that people like him like to play the game and provide that type of perspective, analysis, and leadership. He’s like the Thomas Friedman of BBS door games.

Players have every right to advocate for less Over-Complication

The second concept is Balance Issues.

Balance Issues are when players gripe about not making the right decisions before-hand after they’ve come to learn new information after-the-fact. Or, grousing about how X is advantaged over Y because Z. It looks like:

  • mechanic A keeps revising their price because they’ve seen mechanics B and C offer cheaper, later, so mechanic A doesn’t want to be seen as unfair
  • suggesting that since mechanics can read and repair maybe we buff the scouts by giving them read, which actually does make more narrative sense

**Balance Issues ** are totally appropriate, and totally to be expected, in competitive games, of which, I suspect a fair portion of the players in BWD are familiar. Griping about Balance Issues is fairly common among certain digital subcultures. Anyone who’s played an MMO knows about balance issues, as do: competitive RTS, FPS, and MOBA players. Even SP RPG games (fallout, skyrim already mentioned here) suffer from balance issues. In the post-Chelsea wasteland, not everyone may be able to read, but all of us are familiar, if not fluent, in being able to independently observe and identify imbalanced items, abilities, and powers.

But…BASD and BWD are not competitive games, they are cooperative. There’s no one single winner, everyone who has fun is a winner. There’s no shaming noobs for dying early, there’s sincere regret if and when anyone gets left behind, because to be left behind is to be left out. And, to me, it’s the cooperative storytelling that makes this so much better than any tabletop RPGing that I’ve ever done.

Which is why: we as players need to avoid whining about Balance Issues. We need to trust that our GMs are not toying with us in some thunderdome (even if the dome does show up near Edwards AFB). We need to trust that the GMs want us all to continue playing, even if we suffer from bad judgement or bad dice rolls, as Donald has foreshadowed (I suspect that a lot of those round 1 folks that scraped by with 1 HP were actually in the negatives, saved by the GM, but I pray he doesn’t reveal that, least not till the end). We need to trust them to include us in their stories, and not worry that they are using gameplay mechanisms to exclude us.

Players need to trust that Balance Issues will never be prioritized over cooperative storytelling.

And thus, players need to identify Over-Complication and not bother the GMs about fixing the gameplay to resolve Balance Issues.

And, though the specific thoughts typed above haven’t occurred to me until tonight, I’d like to think that I’ve tried to resolve some of this via in-character play rather than meta-commentary. I’m one of the first players to form a convoy, the first to tip a mechanic for repair services, the first to give an unsolicited tip a to literate for their reading services, and the first to offer a LP to someone who lost a finger. And, the second, after daneel (my achilles, swoon), to publicly advocate for more explicit rewards for all. Now, Cougar is welcome, and expected, to give me the Toecutter treatment of leaving my hanging by a rope from a tree for some backstory reason. But I’ve been clear in my character portrayal that I care more about story, and have been cavalier about resources and stats, because that’s where my priorities are.

Oh dear, that went long. Still, on re-read, it seems cogent and appropriate. Let me know if you think I’m blinkered.

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124

I LOVE THIS ANALYSIS:

Simplify the game, trust the GM.

After all, the GM has the biggest investment of all us, S/he has the biggest stake in keeping the players enaged.

I am not the least bit concerned about play balance. If it turns out having a character with a British accent confers an advantage, well, that’s just another thing to riff stories on, and another thing to negotiate. But to Riff and to negotiate, I need to be able to comprehend.

and not just comprehend, but convey that comprehension to more casual players.

So yes, SIMPLIFY. If the resulting gameplay results in scouts who dirve red british sports cars getting screwed, well, hey, that’s just more fodder for the narrative mill. :smile:

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125

Not to diminish the value of the excellent post you’ve made, but you had me at “beer made within the county.”

In seriousness, I agree with every word you’ve written. I hope that unqualified global agreement isn’t cheapened by the presumption that it is unconsidered.

For some bona-fides Let me declare that I’ve been gaming since the D&D books were sold in a three-book boxed set…

Anyway, I fully agree.

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126

I was wondering about the whole fuel thing. I thought the whole point of the SHITGO narrative was that gasoline was no longer really needed and cars were now run on pepperoni pizza powered diarrhea. What happens when we run out of fuel? How does SHITGO work?

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127

I believe that SHITGO was for slow, torquey stuff, and petrol for going fast normal like.

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128

I should add that I totally trust the GMs here, they know what they’re doing.

Any carping I was doing about balance was entirely role playing.

Honest, guv.

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129

Agreed. I am an economist IRL and any rabble rousing on my part on the economics of the game is really just my way of playing the game and exploring the economics of such a situation. You guys have no idea how hard it is not getting into some of the more complicated economics jargon while staying in character of an alcoholic Detroit UAW gearhead.

All in all the GMs have done a great job and some rebalancing is going to be due no matter what. The more complicated the game the more rebalancing but if done right, the better the game. So far I am having fun both playing the game and discussing the intricate balances being established. I still stand by my hunch that the mechanics are overpowered and will end up being the most baddass monsters in the wastelands but we will see how the GMs adjust things as the game goes on.

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130

ya, I’m with you and @daneel. Here’s what I submitted via PM when we did the middle-of-the-night-sign-up.

TRUCK: Dad's 1975 Freightliner conventional tractor was recovered by the side of the road, out of fuel, with no sign of him. It's got a sleeper cab. Before SHITGO, it ran on diesel. It does not run on gas (that's my problem and limitation as a player, a self-handicap, not yours to worry about). I figure if gas is rare then diesel is even more rare to find. If some shows up, fine, but I'm planning to max torque, SHITGO for hauling, defensive armor. Big, slow, lumbering tank.

I’m not faulting GMs.

But am agreeing with folks who also thought that SHITGO and GASOLINE and DIESEL were initially different concepts.

Now I’ve seen that Donald and others use “diesel” and “gasoline” interchangeably as applies to the relevant “fuel” source of our vehicles. They are much more gearheads than I initially gave them credit for, and that’s my fault for “misunderestimating” them.

Given what I’ve read, and I have no advanced knowledge, but I’d expect that when any of us run out of “fuel,” whether that be of the gasoline or diesel variety, that none of us will be stuck in the mud. As long as we have pizza to convert. Rather, we’ll get some sort of handicap (logically, I’d guess Speed, Movement), but instead get a buff to Torque (totally canon) to concentrate us around the objective (rocket) and provide continuous movements (heh) to us till the end. After all, the story begins with that dirt merchant anklebiter giving us the story in retrospect, so the rocket DOES get to Edwards and the rocket DOES get it’s ass to mars and some of us DO live. (not me - I’ve said too much)

This is all out-of-character speculation, and I have no a-priori knowledge. AND I DON’T WANT ANY. JESUS GOD PLEASE NO ONE OFFER ANY SPOILERS.

But I do offer it as my extreme, and I mean extreme, faith in the GMs to have many, many, creative options to usher us all to the end. Even if it’s a shitty end.

LITERALLY.

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131

If you really don’t want to know I won’t tell you, but I think it might be beneficial to be slightly more transparent about how this works on our end. Even though part of your point is obviously that you’re not concerned about the gritty details, bear with me and you’ll see how this plays right into that mindset.

Though we all have input and toss ideas around regarding the story, it’s no secret it mostly comes from Donald’s creative brain, complete with a certain sense of how things should logically work in the world he’s created.

So then the missions get passed to me and Jonas. The results really are based on dice rolls (actually, random numbers generated by a spreadsheet), and the risks outlined ahead of time dictate how the dice are rolled and what their rolls mean.

But as you can probably imagine, translating the missions to mathematical formulas is not straightforward. patrace managed this quite well, but the missions were different (some of ours in future rounds will be more like that). I incorporate everything the mission briefs say, but then the calculations have to be tweaked to death until they are beatable - at least, beatable by a player who reasonably should be able to beat it.

It isn’t completely arbitrary, and like I said it does involve dice throws. But there’s a reason I had Jane say that you needn’t worry about the details that much :smile:

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132

I’ll not publicly quibble with a word of that. I shall endeavor to add, as I think it’s swell, one of the best quotes from a mentor I’ve ever had was:

“What we decide based on our judgement may be arbitrary, but it should never be capricious.”

Not that you GMs are. That’s the point.

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133

When I realised I’d read through all of that without checking any acronyms at all, I had the feeling of an angel caressing me with her wings and heard a come-hither calling.

This is all actually germane to an amorphous project I’m working on - an aspect whereby I need to design a world that encourages interactive co-operation between parties with no incentive to co-operate, but where the ancillaries of the narrative might generate immense benefits. They, being seasoned ‘players’, are suspicious of revealing anything, but if they accept the cultural change, can massively amplify for opportunities for reward / efficiency / effectiveness, if they share.

I hadn’t expected to get cross-pollination of insights when I signed up for this!

So for me, watching all the interactions and development of the meta-status is as fascinating as the game itself. I’m impressed by and grateful for all the work and time put into this, I really am!

~ puffs pipe ~

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134

I’m waiting for any one of you to pull off the mask and say, “Hi, I’m Ian Bogost.”

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135

Hello there, I thought I’d OOC introduce myself a little bit since I am a completely unknown member of the boards here. Matter of fact, I wasn’t a member until I was shown to this specific game by @kingannoy. I am also female.
I read early on in the thread that there was a bit of a worry about getting a balanced male/female sign-up and what area’s may or may not attribute to the low female sign-ups. Although I have my licence and do drive regularly, I am not familiar with cars, engines, or any of that stuff. In fact, the only reasons I hesitated joining were :
“Well I don’t really know anything about cars or racing or stuff like that… What if I’ll sound like an idiot?”
And second
“I know nearly nothing of the Mad Max universe…”

But although I have no D&D experience, I have partaken in quite a few online text based rpg’s so I figured I could wing it.

But after a light nudge from kingannoy I decided to join because… Who doesn’t like mutant and zombie-filled post apocalyptic waste-lands?? I surely do! And the SHITGO addition to cars made it just crazy enough to want to try. It cost me a while to figure out what kind of car to pick or what class went along with it. Other than that it’s just trying to figure out where to fit in.

So far I’m having a GREAT time! :smiley:
You GMs have created quite a colorful world with interesting game dynamics. I for one am very happy I signed on! And hence; very happy that you guys and girls decided to create this. So thanks!

I feel I drop behind a bit every once in a while due to the active players (and a different timezone), but I can still get by. It doesn’t seem like much of a problem so far. I’m also of the ‘I trust the GMs’ persuasion and I’ll just see how far I get. :smiley:

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Excellent! We’re awfully glad you’re here and having fun. Part of what I love about this game (just as I loved about the previous outer-space version we played last fall, Badass Space Dragon) is the freedom of the players to add whatever they want to the story as long as it can be even vaguely shoe-horned into the genre. We’ve got elements in here from pop culture icons like Mad Max, Fallout, Waterworld, A Boy and His Dog, Big Trouble in Little China, Smokey and the Bandit, Convoy, and a whole lot more to come, but the best parts are those imagined and remixed by the players. And your contributions have only made the overall experience that much more awesome!

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OOC

This is so true, and a very common fear that many share. 

Vouching to friends about this experience, like kingannoy did, is a great way to help people bridge those fears. 

I also think, going forward, that GMs and Veteran Players can explicitly advertise and volunteer to help on-board new players who may be hesitant or uncertain about whether they can "fit in" 

Thank you so much for chiming in and so glad you joined. 

Look forward to your continued participation both in-game and OOC.
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138

fixed that for you. that repair will be 2LP.

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I don’t actually know much of anything about cars and racing and stuff like that either. Definitely not a requirement (though the knowledge of some players is clearly intimidating… assuming they’re not just making it all up ;)) and I’m glad you joined.

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@funruly Thank you! I look forward to it too :smile:
And yes, it helps a lot when it’s stated specifically that; no, you don’t need to know everything about [TOPIC] in order to join and have fun!

@penguinchris if they are making it up on the spot, they are doing a hell of a job tricking us into believing it! Haha. I’m glad I joined too and pretty curious to find out what’s next :smiley:

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And here I was trying to be completist. Thanks for the handy job!

2LP to the smartmouth teamster!

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The best way to “fit it” is to just be whoever the hell you want to be. The real point of all this silliness is the improv.

Make up your own story. Extremely successful examples from “Bad Ass Space Dragons” included

  • an anti-social uber-nihilist,

  • an over-calculating pusillanimous reptile named Richard Nixon

  • a bartender who spent most of his time tending his bar and sponsoring parties.

  • a Chilean fellow who stepped right out of a spaghetti western to deliver the most moving speech I have ever heard about the importance of standing up for what is right in the face of a bully.

What did any of that have to do with “Space Dragons?” Nothing, as far as I could tell, but it sure made for a great “game”

Don’t worry about gameplay and carburetors and all that. Just act out something that interests you, and you’ll discover that you’re acting out amongst friends.

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