Edward's Snowden's search for political asylum is not going well

boing
41

Actually, it looks like that’s a thing now.

I didn’t get that impression at all from the report, although German isn’t my first language so I may be wrong. It seems that the same restrictions apply as with many other countries, i.e. that he would need to be in the country to apply, but that even were he to arrive in the country somehow he could easily be turned away. One exception is if Snowden could actually be executed in America for the leaks, in which case Germany would be legally obligated to protect him. Politically speaking, it would be likely that Germany would deny asylum due to their strong ties with the US. Some opposition ministers want to assess this case, but stress that it must be handled in accordance with the law, not the political situation - any special or secret agreement would be illegal. In any case, there are doubts about whether Western Europe would even be a good place for Snowden to seek asylum, as by law they would probably need to extradite him sooner or later.

42

German is legally obligated to protect him if he would face execution OR torture in the US - asylum status or an extradition treaty is irrelevant in this case.

Aufenthaltsgesetz (Residence Act) Section 60 Prohibition of deportation

(2) A foreigner may not be deported to a state in which a
concrete danger exists of the said foreigner being subjected to
torture or inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment.

(3) A foreigner may not be deported to a state in which he or she is
wanted for an offence and a danger of imposition or enforcement of the
death penalty exists. In such cases, the provisions on deportation
shall be applied accordingly.

(4) If a formal request for extradition or a request for arrest
combined with a notification of intent to file a request for
extradition has been received from another state, deportation of the
foreigner to this state shall be permissible only with the approval of
the authority which is responsible for approving extradition pursuant
to Section 74 of the Act on International Mutual Assistance in
Criminal Matters.

(5) A foreigner may not be deported if deportation is inadmissible
under the terms of the Convention of 4 November 1950 for the
Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (Federal Law
Gazette 1952 II, p. 685).

(6) The general danger that a foreigner may face prosecution and
punishment in another state and, in the absence of any provisions to
the contrary in sub-section 2 to 5, the concrete danger of lawful
punishment under the legal system of another state shall not preclude
deportation.

So the german government now denies protection/asylum arguing that a) he is not politically persecuted, b) his extradition is requested according to a treaty and he can be extradited because c) his life or bodily integrity is not in danger (2+3).

45

I’d agree with you if it wasn’t for the way the US has treated other recent dissidents. The US is just not a free and just nation anymore in the way that western nations used to be. If you live under an oppressive system, you have to ensure your own safety from that system.

46

A big problem in his asylum requests is that he isn’t in the countries where he’s seeking asylum. Generally you can only ask for asylum in the country where you are. So Russia it is.

I think he should be able to get asylum in Netherland according to the Dutch rules. Manning’s treatment shows that he’s facing cruel and unusual treatment in his own country, and that’s enough. But he’s not here, and if he was, there’s be a huge political circus around him, and I can’t be sure that our current government would show any spine.

47

I was counting on an ethos of “leaks for the other guy are good, and we want those; but leaks for us are bad.” However, your point is a good one.

48

Generally governments do not want troublemakers.

I think something people miss is, yes, this is a big amount of corruption, but other nations are even MORE corrupt than this, they just don’t have the expansive technology the NSA has. They have the intent , but the not the ability. Some nations like China, heck, on Reddit today I was watching a set of photos put out by a guy who video taped a protest in Tiennamen square. Not five minutes after the protest started, two vans pulled up, cops shoved people in them, and we’ll probably never see those people again. They might already be dead. That was one nation Snowden stopped in. (Yes, I know, SAR, all that… )

Another nation, the FSB went into the UK, and literally assassinated a defector. Right in front of everyone. The guy knew too much, and had spoken ill of Putin, and so he got murdered. Yes, we have drone strikes in the US, and we do our fair share, but this is a case where EVERYONE KNOWS what happened to people that don’t like Putin. History may judge him like a Stalin-light. He doesn’t purge some of his enemies… just sends them to prison for decades. This was another nation Snowden stopped at, and, in fact, applied to. (Before removing his application.)

Ecudor has the president and government absorbing a newspaper and bankrupting it, imprisoning its entire editorial board. Sure, he pardoned them, and maybe there was libel/slander going on, but those are CIVIL charges handled in CIVIL court. They aren’t something that is worth shuttering a paper entirely by government force and throwing people in jail. This is a third country Snowden stopped in and applied for.

Bolivia , Fordor’s travel guides suggest you actually take money (but not too much) in order to pay off corrupt police officers, cutstoms officials, judges, etc. http://www.fodors.com/world/south-america/bolivia/la-paz/feature_30005.html
This is a fourth country.

Venezuela, Argentina, etc.

My point is, yes, the US is corrupt with regards to the NSA spying incident. Many of these countries are corrupt to that degree and MORE. They don’t really want someone like Edward Snowden present there. They don’t really want someone who can make that level of trouble for a super power like the US anywhere CLOSE to their systems.

49

I don’t see any excuses for torture in my post.

But everything else you mentioned is extralegal (which should mean illegal, but doesn’t seem to), and by definition, that’s not what Snowden would face within the judicial system. Plus he’s white, male, and not muslim, so he’s pretty much guaranteed to get a far fairer shake than a lot of other people in this country.

50

That isn’t working out very well for Bradley Manning so far.

51

Bradley Manning isn’t in the normal justice system. He’s facing military justice, which is a whole different kettle of fish as we’ve seen. Not that that excuses any of what’s been done to him, but it’s the reason that pretending that Snowden faces the same is mere hyperbole. We know what Snowden will face: it’s not like we don’t have a lot of other (civilian) whistleblowers to look for as examples.

Though I’ll grant that the whole fugitive thing probably won’t go down well.

52

On the whole, dissidents do pretty well. No one’s locking up the ACLU. I think the closest comparison is say, occupy protestors, who were definitely subject to a lot of police brutality, but more so than in the past? More so than say anti vietnam war protestors or the civil rights movement? And in all of those instances, a large part of civil disobedience IS being arrested. People volunteer to be the ones who are in line to be arrested.

I’m still thinking it over, but I think staying put and facing injustice straight on is actually a huge part of changing things. It’s a symbol of commitment,in the sense of saying that you want to see things actually get fixed, that simply leaving the country isn’t an option, that you’re not going to just let it be swept under the rug by conveniently removing yourself, you know? Fleeing is more…defection, which is another way of writing something off as unsalvageable. Which it may be, without some radical upheaval, but if you’re hoping or counting on popular dissent to rectify the situation (as would seem to be the point of these leaks), the implication is that it isn’t unsalvageable. So I don’t know.

53

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