Next, we’ll collectively agree there isn’t such a thing, because there isn’t. If you meant the movement, we’ll stay the course, pointing out/shining a light on it at every opportunity.
We certainly can’t agree that there isn’t hatred because it is a natural feature of the human condition, usually resultant of fear which we also can’t be rid of. And while working to mitigate and minimize both is always beneficial, working to end it may not be given that it isn’t likely possible except maybe over the course of many, many generations of cultural evolution. Maybe.
Calling out FOXNEWS on each and every occasion using every applicable approach, logic, reason, satirical humour, various appeals. Kinda sorta what this thread is. That -you- know:
is both the point and not the point. See what I mean?
True, but to be fair, IanMcLoud said “the hatred,” amd may have meant the hatred of black people, and maybe of FOX’s other usual targets too. [EDIT: Oops, no, he didn’t say “the.” Anywayyyyyyyyyy]
I think we could at least help to end the hatred by demanding that SC stop officially sanctioning that fucking flag. Maybe Roof’s massacre will spark a movement against it; a state senator in SC is actually going to introduce a bill towards its removal (a Republican!).
Not that the more favored flag is universally adored.
Not when we emulate them by reducing a complex issue to single facet. (not that YOU have, personally) (i dunno, haven’t read the -whole- thread)
I’ve seen enough: “It’s not only about the XXX that FOX says, it’s ONLY about progressive cause YYY and if you disagree you’re not progressive enough” which is just a mirror of what FOX does. A mere recasting of the same stupid drama. I want all of us to be sure we are, as individuals, above it if we, as individuals, call out FOX for being divisive.
Tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance. it’s what FOX does.
Because it’s pretty clear that this has been a long standing tactic of fox news. Why take it seriously? Why, all of a sudden, should we take Fox news seriously, especially when it came out almost immediately that they were completely and utterly wrong? They have a long history of obfuscating the truth in general.
He’s a white supremacists. Full stop. Here is the fuckers manifesto:
About half the people I have said that to have come back later and told me they hadn’t noticed that before.
Life is a lot calmer and nicer when we don’t willingly tune into people yelling at each other. When we do, we have to ask ourselves what kind of world we, existentially speaking, actually want for ourselves.
I found it interesting that when I was perusing news sites yesterday, every other site (for example, CNN, USATODAY, etc) has this shooting as the top story. But FoxNews had some Clinton/Bengahzi thing as their headline story.
If I own a guitar, play a guitar, and even write songs… it does not make me a musician.
Let this play out. We have time to settle the bet, but what I have seen, including this manifesto (I mean EVERYONE KNOWS FAMOUS HATERS HAVE MANIFESTOS) screams wannabe, screams attention seeker, screams trodlogytic misantropic loner who just wanted to be noticed.
I’m glad we’re being civil again, by the way. I love the way you think. Can’t say I always agree though.
people are pissed because time and again, attacks like this are shrugged off and attributed to something else. For centuries this has been true. Violence against black people has been blamed on other things. Not on racism and white supremacy. This is an incredibly clear case where, from very nearly the start, the guy was an obvious white supremacist.
Ignoring white supremacy won’t make it go away. Attributing to something else won’t make it go away. Looking at it, dealing with, and accepting that it will exist will one day get us on the right road to making it better. White people need to start doing that now instead of continuing to hand wave and ignore because they don’t see it and don’t feel as if they are effected by white privilege and continuing racism in our society…
Maybe, just maybe this horrific event can be a wake up call like the lynching of Emmett Till was. The racism and brutality of his murder helped at least some people see what was going on, and to want to actually help and change things. That too, actually was about racism and white supremacy. Much like these murders are.
I too, am glad we’re being civil. I’m pushing you because I know you’re a good guy, with a good heart. I too think you’re still wrong about this.
And I want you to understand why this is at it’s heart about white supremacy in American society. If we’re seriously going to fix shit, all of us have to do it together.
Yeah, I read it too. It’'s solid, chilling evidence of the power that extreme white supremacists still have to influence and even direct young minds. And now this manifesto itself will likely do the same thing, though hopefully not with the same results. Seems to me that Roof felt he was in league with such people, and that he was a soldier for a cause that he saw himself becoming a leading part of. He wrote that “someone has to get things started” (I have no interest in going back to get an accurate quote), and he meant to spark a race war, and he sees himself as a soldier in a proudly white army. He may not have received direct marching orders, but he didn’t “act alone” either. (Not that I think you disagree with any of that, obvs.)
No, we’re generally on the same page on this stuff… It’s hard not to be. They always see themselves as these shining heroes for whiteness, don’t they? Ugh… I read this shit, and… I mean, I don’t even know how to counter so much hate and ignorance. [ETA] WE NEED GG HUGS, STAT!!!
Oh, about the “direct marching orders”… Yeah, but not only that, but he feels as if he acted alone, because it plays into the hero fantasy built up around white supremacist organizations in the past few decades, that they are these sole, heroic hold outs, protecting the “white race” from all that sieges it…
Shit… is it too late to change my dissertation topic? Cause maybe I need to write a history of how mass culture created by white supremacist groups informs this sort of thinking? Next project? But what about my fandom project? Shit. Too much to do.
Focusing on One Reason and attributing everything he did to One Reason… it is the other side of the same coin, the same binary state of how things are when YOU (in the any one of us, sense) cannot tolerate difference. Focusing on one EXTERNAL cause is the tails to the heads of WHAT HE IS DOING WRONG.
Want to change the game? Tolerate difference. Learn what is an is not a threat. (sorry! that sounds really patronizing in review, but i hope you see the point)
Ideas are no threat. They’re not corporeal like bullets are. (no that is not a people kill people argument}
Spiritually bankrupt people with a drive to change the outside world to fix their inside problems, DEFINITELY ARE A THREAT. To everyone.
White Supremacists self-identification is definitely a red-flag signifying that state of affairs to me. As is violent jiahd. As is addiciton. As is self mutilation. They’re sure not all the same, but they’re all fucked up ways to fight fear.
The revolution we need really isn’t against one of the symptoms of spiritual bankruptcy, it’s to make sure we’re not infected. Staring at the abyss and all that.
I’m pretty sure we’re gonna get that fucking flag down though. Finally. Let that be what he is remembered for.
I know you’re not saying that we should tolerate shooting people because of the color of their skin, but this was clearly a threat, even if he had never acted on his beliefs. Black people say that white supremacy is a threat to their lives and well being and they are absolutely correct. Just because every day a white supremacist doesn’t shoot doesn’t mean that white supremacy doesn’t play out in other ways that are painless to the black community. While I have the privilege to ignore this shit and shrug it off because it’s generally not aimed at me, the black community doesn’t get the luxury. I think that one of the most helpful things we can do as white allies is to point this shit out when we see it. Not ban it, or ignore it, or assume it’s some sort of pathology. But to point it out and say “here”. It’s not the only thing we can do, but it is something and it matters.
I don’t think people should be banned from saying whatever hateful shit they have to say. I think we should point to it, and talk back to it. Just like whenever a cop shoots a black kid with a gun, we need to point out the disparity in how the cops treat people based on race.
I don’t know… this is South Caroline we’re talking about here. I’m not even sure we’ll get a firm conviction of this guy. I really have no faith in the system with regards to justice and fairness, especially not in a state like South Carolina…
I met this guy recently at a conference, who is writing a dissertation project in rhetoric at Clemson (also in SC). He told us about how when he was getting his campus tour, he noticed a beautiful house on the hill that looked like a plantation house. Turned out it was. But the tour guide knew nothing. Also, when he managed to get TNC to come to campus, they had his talk at the Strom Thurmond building. Because, WTF?
