It’s freedom for me to oppress everyone else. So Libertarian and Fascism are pretty much the same thing for people with wealth and power.
9 Likes
Never go full Dilbert!
27 Likes
The path Waters has taken is a legitimate shame. Looking back at parts of behind the scenes footage from Live at Pompeii and similar, I feel like I can see the seeds of it. But man has that narcissism blown all out of proportion. It’s taken him to places his younger self would not recognize and be rightfully appalled at.
Similar to Oliver Stone that way. And many other formerly great artists that it would break my heart to list… former anti-establishment artists who have become a full-on authoritarian followers. Uncritically listening to actual dictators who make their contrarianism feel good - and thus, paradoxically, gain their unquestioning loyalty.
This can also be taken as the horseshoe theory in action. So far left they’ve gone all the way around to brown-nosing rightwing dictators from behind.
But narcissism going out of control seems to be a main factor for artists taking such a turn. Maybe even more than a person’s starting politics. Narcissism could be a leading requirement for holding onto any position that’s so far out of step with reality, as to believe authoritarians when they’re provably lying.
12 Likes
To be fair (and I don’t need to be) there is a subsection of libertarians who are horrified by the takeover of Libertarianism by fascists, but are also scared by the libertarian-socialists who tell them that capitalism and freedom are incompatible. They are currently politically homeless, I think some of them tried to take over mutualism about six month ago, but for some reason the socialist group who were in the First International and a major faction in the Paris Commune weren’t interested in being capitalists.
23 Likes
When the wage for your labor comes from another’s pockets, who considers it charity, you can’t ever be truly free, can you?
11 Likes
Is this what they call projection?
13 Likes
In 2006, Hoppe founded The Property and Freedom Society (“PFS”) as a reaction against the Milton Friedman-influenced Mont Pelerin Society, which he has derided as “socialist”
Hoppe asserted that any argument which in any respect purports to contradict libertarian principles is logically incoherent.[30]
That’s one way to always win an argument…
13 Likes
I guess we also have to look at the historic reality that centrists often end up supporting fascism over even mild socialism. Horseshoe theory really falls apart when you take that into account.
19 Likes
The version of horseshoe theory that, IMO, more or less works basically says that extremists have similar underlying personalities, and in practice often have more in common with the opposite-side extremists than with the moderates on their own side. (Corollary to this is that people’s politics are far more determined by their personalities than most think, and far less by any ideological coherence or persuasive reasoning.)
9 Likes
Agreed. It has little to do with the details of the ideologies being switched between, except the ones that grant special levels of power to chosen adherents. That’s why I every time I encounter a brocialist or “dirtbag leftist” – especially a white cis-het male one – all I can see is one of these…
17 Likes
It still doesn’t work with left-wing and post-left anarchism though, except on a very superficial level.
14 Likes
How things overlap and why is far more complex than just “the far right and far left overlap” it seems to me…
12 Likes
Hell, I think most of The Wall could easily be given a Laibach “One Vision” style makeover to be transformed into something considered pro-fascist.
For instance, “In the Flesh?” with Pink’s quasi-Nazi rally/concert turns from being an examination of his descent into madness to aspirational (especially with its calls to exterminate Jews, gays, blacks, and anybody else who “don’t look right”), with the following song “Run Like Hell” being a Trump-style J6 call to violence.
11 Likes
Years ago I swear I recall an interview where waters essentially had said that the wall was a fascist fantasy and straight up said something like “haven’t we all had one” and I remember mainly because at the time I was like… wait… no, actually.
One of those moments that reminded me that the artist’s intent and a participant’s experience can be deeply disconnected.
24 Likes
It’s really surprising to hear this. Waters’ father was killed in WWII literally fighting fascists during the Battle of Anzio. Pink’s own story in The Wall was semi-autobiographical. Most of side 1 and 2 are exploring young Pink’s childhood traumas around his father’s death and how this contributed to his own self-destructive behavior as an adult.
I guess this also means that Pink’s eventual embracing of fascism was also semi-autobiographical as well. The redemption at the end, perhaps not so much.
18 Likes
There is a real far-right movement inspired by The Wall.
13 Likes
When The Wall was made, it seemed to be linking fascism with a descent into madness. As well as damning people for easily falling under the sway of would-be fascists through group influence. Saying that the unthinking herd adoration fans can have of musical stars, is the same unthinking adoration masses can have for authoritarian leaders. The comfort of being in a group then leading people to commit the unthinkable just because others are too.
It seems that since then Waters has very much lost the plot of some of his own best works.
18 Likes
2 Likes
Maybe all he needs is a giant singing butt-judge to set him right.
8 Likes
