Ugh, some of the comments in this thread:
Never change, unless it’s to get even LOUDER, and more insistent.
Fuckin A; they need to do that shit, ASAP, while all three are still alive and kicking.
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It’s like we can’t have a conversation about issues like this, because some people won’t take it seriously.
But we knew that already, I guess, depressingly enough.
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Or they do so because that’s what gets marketed?
Look at something like Portal. No one expected Portal to be a success. It was stuffed in as an extra in The Orange Box. The Half-Life game was marketed in that box. Portal got lucky enough to be treated to the crappy “free gift with purchase” status. If Valve hadn’t even done that… How many people would have even heard of Portal?
Look around at what gets advertised. What gets put on the billboards and in the premium shelf-space in the stores. It’s either the ultra-violent/sports game, or it’s marketed to kids. This is the image the industry has created for itself. That acceptance and demand you cite is manufactured consent. It’s not a reflection of what people want in a game, any more than a Humvee is what people want in a car. But if a Humvee is all that they see on the lot (except for some other stuff jammed into a secondary lot behind the building and away from view of any passing traffic), and the only model they see advertised, well, then most people who drive will be driving Humvees and most of everyone else will prefer not to call themselves a driver. Maybe if a dealer threw in a free Prius with Humvee purchase, you would suddenly see a lot more Priuses on the road for a bit, driven by those who discovered it and left the Humvee in the garage, but if all the industry marketed after that was Humvee and Prius 2.0 (and never made another Prius after that), you’d still think of Humvee being the only kind of car that sells.
Sure, there are all types of games out there. But you kind of have to be a gamer or tapped into the gaming scene to know about them – outside of phone games like Candy Crush. A scene which filters out those who would be most likely to buy and play those other games.
There’s no real demand in “supply and demand” because we choose from what we perceive as the available supply. Which, to the outside potential customer looks an awful lot like either “super-violent action blockbuster” or “kidlet entertainment”. If that’s all that seems to be there, and that’s not what you’re into, you’re more likely to take your cash somewhere that apparently wants it.
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I’m with @Melizmatic on this. You get to say your peace. If anyone doesn’t like what you have to say…they can…ya know…ignore it. Or they can fuck right off. Either works.
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I don’t think it’s a question of not taking it seriously, as much as it is about taking it personally. We all react to this “men are trash” concept emotionally and personally-- we can’t help it. But I’ve been thinking… if you get too wound up in your own individual reaction, then you miss some of the larger issues involved. “You can’t see the forest for the trees.”
Yes, it hurts to hear a generalization that impacts one’s own identity and sense of self. But as I’ve said upthread, automatically denying cuts off most chances of understanding why people say it and where they’re coming from in saying it. After all, if it’s “not me, nope, not true” then where’s my connection to it? Why be involved with it at all?
Analogy, hopefully not too off-topic: “White women support Trump.” Some part of me bristles at that, because I’m a white woman, and I sure as hell didn’t vote for him. But if I get too wound up in that knee-jerk “not me” reaction, I miss the details. No, I didn’t vote for him, but over 50% of white women did, according to the statistics. So it’s not completely true, but there’s some truth in it. Next, who says this, and why? I find it often comes from POC, especially women POC, who had hoped that their fellow women would have their backs and vote against someone who would not act in their interests. And-- if I don’t want that assumption of “I’m a Trump supporter because I’m a white woman” to be true-- what do I do about it? Not voting for Trump is the bare minimum required, but I can do more. I can be very vocal that no, I don’t support the man or his policies. I can get more involved politically with progressive candidates and causes. And when the complaint comes up, I can listen to the people making it, instead of automatically defending myself. I need to hear what they’re saying, what their concerns are, what they need to fix the situation, if I am ever to have a hope in making it better.
(Sorry for dragging politics into this sorry mess, but it’s the best analogy I can think of, and I’ve been pondering this for some time.)
In order to fix the Toxic Male culture that spawns the “men are trash” meme, we all need to be involved. I don’t think that literally all men are trash and I don’t want to make all men feel like they are trash. I would like it if more men took a deep look inside themselves to see how Male culture has affected them, and how it’s influenced them. Of course it has-- our culture influences us all, men and women alike. “We’re soaking in it.” But without some self-awareness and reflection, you can’t make a change in yourself, or your environment. I see a lot of men in this discussion who’ve done the work and are speaking out, and I’m very grateful for that! And I don’t discount the pain that comes with hearing “men are trash.” I’m glad and grateful for those who’ve shared their experience of it with us. But, tl;dr, I ask that those who feel uncomfortable with it think a little deeper about the reasons behind “men are trash”, and what needs to be done to make saying “men are trash” unnecessary. Just not saying the words won’t make the underlying societal issues go away. Sure, it’s an uncomfortable thing to think about. But isn’t it worth it?
(Apologies for the wall-of-text. But I kinda felt it needed it to make the point.)
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you’re point is very clear…how hard is for one to see a generalization and say “well, that’s not me, but I get that its a generalization not a personal attack”
I always think of this scene from Up In the Air.
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Pretty much, yup.
What sold last time tends to sell again this time. Having a sequel or a franchise sure does take the thought out of having to make choices.
It used to be that you’d perhaps check out a review, but nobody listens to game critics any more…
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Harder than breathing, easier than running a marathon. It’s effort worth expending. It’s overriding an instinctive response, but it’s hardly the first time anyone’s had to do that.
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I shook my head so hard at that scene when it came out, because my children are well versed in travel skills, so standing behind us in a security line – even back when strollers were involved – was always faster than standing behind businessmen. We enjoyed busting people’s ‘stereotypes’.
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Yes, because
They throw marketing dollars at what they think will sell, based on what sold in the past.
The whole idea that the demand is due to the marketing requires one of two things to be true. Either
- The people running these companies care about other things more than they care about making money. ( I think this is very unlikely)
Or - Big companies don’t like taking risks. This one is almost a truism, but the reason they see more of the same as being a sure thing is *because it succeeded in the past *. That is to say, the demand for that kind of game preceded all the money spent marketing that kind of game.
There are established companies that make games that aren’t like this, but they are niche markets, so they don’t make top ten lists.
There is room for breakaway games that aren’t like this, as demonstrated by the success of Minecraft, bu big companies with external/public investors don’t like to take risks ( for reasons that have everything to do with money, and nothing to do with ideology) , so innovation will likely remain the province of smaller companies without big marketing budgets.
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Oh, they do ignore me. I’m a hysterical woman, after all… /s
I disagree on this point - the whole point of cultural criticism is to better understand ourselves, our relationships to one another, the social world we’ve built and constitute, and in the very best cases, the ideological structures that are largely invisible to us all (the unstated assumptions about any number of issues). And when that discussion lands on how women (or racial minorities, or LBGQT+ folks, etc) are presented in film, TV, music, and games, well… People immediately feel like it’s not worth the discussion - this is part of the reason why the right has gone on the offensive about the humanities in universities - because they stopped centering ONLY white, cisgendered, straight men. It all of a sudden “became political”, when the choices made in the preceding century or so of building the modern academy were entirely shot through with political choices! And now, likely in part that so many academics are struggling to find work in the academy, this stuff is becoming more widespread and common discourse. And people who think it’s either nonsense or pure ideology believe that discussing various aspects of culture is blanket condemnation, when that is very often NOT the case.
I study cultural history, especially mass culture, because that’s the culture that everyone embraces and has familiarity with. Like any other cultural experience, it helps us to form connections and bonds, to better understand ourselves, others, and our place within them. It’s about rebuilding community in a world that is deeply individualized and atomized. But, the second you have a single criticism aimed at improving the culture we all enjoy, it’s immediately perceived as an attack… So they don’t take it seriously…
That I agree with! They see the criticism as a personal attack, because they have a personal connection with whatever culture is under discussion. But we can talk through it and make it better, more interesting, more reflective of our real experiences - even if it is fantasy.
I think that’s entirely the case. We’re supposed to take all kinds of shit and answer it back with grace, dignity, and politeness. The second we don’t do that, well… you can see this thread. Never mind the centuries of oppression that women have suffered under, and continue to suffer under. Never mind the endless cat calling or name calling. Never mind that our rights are being taken away as we speak.
Right? Go on!!!
Exactly!!!
Yep! The old white feminist issue that Alice Walker has long talked about.
Preach it sister!
Right! It helps to understand the complicated history of white feminists, and how some factions enthusiastically embraced white supremacy in late 19th and early 20th, and how some second wavers ignored the specifics of being a black women or a working class woman of any race - some just assumed that the Feminine Mystique as described by Betty Friedan (sp?) described how ALL women felt - they mistook their own oppression as standing in for all women. Much like today’s TERFS, who refuse to accept trans women and are willing to align with the hard right in response.
Yep! Again, it’s toxic masculinity that is the problem, a specific definition of being a man in this world that is the core of the problem. THAT is what is trash, this overtly manly ideal where women aren’t fully people in the same way, merely adjacent to men, there to take care of them, sooth their wounds in the rough world of the office, give them children, and be a mere reflection of their needs and desires, and that ALL that SHOULD somehow be enough for us, rather than US having our own wants, needs, desires that we’d like to see fulfilled which has little to do with men, or children, or making dinner!!!
No apologies needed! You’re lovely and we all adore you!!!
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Or they’re so deeply embedded in the system that they don’t see the problem. They say things like “we asked gamers what they wanted to see”, but as has been pointed out, the people who call themselves that are an extremely limited sample. They’re part of the white male monolith.
You know where else we’ve heard the “it’s what sells” myth before? Movies. “A female led movie won’t sell.” Go ahead and look up the numbers on Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel. “Asian leads won’t sell.” Do the numbers on Crazy Rich Asians or To All The Boys I’ve Loved Before. For years it was that Black-led movies won’t sell.
How about “Black authors don’t sell”? We still hear that despite Octavia Butler and NK Jemison dominating their field.
So this whole “other games won’t sell” rings a little hollow.
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You’re a woman yes. I’ve never in all these years I’ve known you online thought you were hysterical.
So. Joking aside.
Don’t diminish yourself. Even sarcastically or through humor. As someone who practices self deprivation far too much. It’s never a positive growth point.
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You’re certainly out of the ordinary then! 
Others do that for me, actually, which is what I was referring to.
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it is both, however, to always be aware that there are behaviours that are expected of you that make you trash. “i am trash i can be better” is a pretty good place to start, and “what did i do today that was trash and how can i make sure it doesn’t happen tomorrow” an even better journey.
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Whatever works for you.
I wouldn’t go that far…
I think we’re talking past each other. My original comment was responding to @codinghorror:
Movies like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are formulaic Hollywood blockbusters with a female lead. I would imagine that a game company that made shooters making a formulaic shooter with a female lead would involve minimal risk. For a company that makes good money churning out formulaic shooters to invest that kind of resources in something with an entirely different mechanic, that wasn’t centered around shooting people, would be more akin to a major studio spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a weird art-house/concept piece.
Major companies with external investors lack of willingness to do that doesn’t require any more ideological myopia than that which automatically comes with being run by bean-counters.
On a similar note, I’d say that Jemysin, who I think is brilliant, writes books that are well within the mainstream of SF. Butler is a little further from the mainstream, but both of them are telling stories within a fairly established genre, not experimenting with the limits of prose style or trying to forge a new genre from scratch. A really well written novel in an established genre is the kind of thing an editor would have a very good idea they could sell, and in this analogy, that’s a game company that makes shooters turning out another shooter, that’s really good, way better than its competitors, not that same game company suddenly sinking a lot of resources into making a brand new cooperative farming game.
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