Mod or community disagreement with flags is only tracked in regard to consideration for TL4, as far as I’m aware. I don’t think there’s any programmatic functionality for demotion based on flag abuse or misguided flags, though maybe the stat could inform a mod’s decision to do so manually.
That last is where people who whinge about not getting TL3 get into trouble. They can be genuinely confused why the mods (who have the final say) allow a flaggin’ to stand, even when it’s obvious to other users of TL1+ who’ve read and try to follow the site rules.
If one’s main concern about one’s comment getting flagged is “oh no, this will hurt my chances for reaching TL3”, one is missing the point of the functionality. The badges and TL3 may seem to some to be a gamification system, but they’re really not.
Yes. Once in a while I get a notice that I’m out of them. When I return after a few hours they’re re-upped.
Not realising this seems to be the source of a lot of the paranoia surrounding the flagging system. I’ve bookmarked your succinct description to share with others in the future.
I did not say the TL system is “gamified”, even if the very low number of members in TL3 and TL4 may make it appear that way (and why not increase that number if the perks are inconsequential?). I make no particular assumptions about the moderation system, I am just trying to find out how it really works. I don’t see how this can be equated with paranoia.
Speaking as a Regular [currently, and for several years, though I did slip off the TL3 status once for a little while, and who knows when I may again] who’s been around for a few years, my understanding is that—in theory at least—the status is not so much about the perks (What can my community do for me? What can I get?) as the responsibilities that one can fulfill if one chooses (What can I do for my community? What can I give?).
From what I’ve read about Discourse’s design philosophy from the mods and devs, that’s exactly what these perks are about: giving users who have shown themselves to be particularly invested in the on-line community and its standards more power to help moderate the site and encourage other users who add value. TL3 isn’t about the perks you get, it’s about acknowledging the behaviour that got you that level of trust.
It’s also done in an unobtrusive way. When I throw a flag I’m not thinking that it’s a TL3 flag, just that it’s a flag. When I give a Like I’m not thinking about how great it is that I have lots of Likes because I’m TL3 (in fact, I never got an “out of Likes” notice at TL2). I know that TL3 flags carry more weight and that I have more Likes, but if I wasn’t a tech geek I probably wouldn’t care how it works. I just participate in the community in good faith and let the TL come and go as the system likes.
Put another way, if someone is spending a lot of time worrying about how to achieve TL3 here he probably won’t be granted it.
Then we are back to square one: do TL3 users flags have more weight or not? I am confused now.
I understood that TL3 only difference was that the system would automatically remove TL0 messages flagged as spam by them. That is a relatively minute change and I don’t see why this is not implemented from TL1 or maybe TL2 onwards. I mean: probably everyone who is not a spammer can recognize spam, while “community guidelines” are a bit more difficult.
Now you tell me that TL3 users have more power to moderate the site. It is not necessarily something I object to, BTW. But if they have more power, how is that implemented?
You are also telling me that they have more power to encourage users who add value. I don’t really see any of that either.
The only real extra weight TL3 has in flagging is it takes less flags from multiple users to hide a post and only one flag if marked as SPAM. Also the mods will not be happy with you if you abuse that power so honestly we really don’t. Doubly so now that once a post is hidden and I find a lot of the time it is already hidden by the time I get to see them so I can’t add any and there are no TL3 people in the thread so it sure isn’t the other regulars.
That said THE MODS have the final say and are the only accounts here that can make posts go away. Flags simply engage the moderators and are not always agreed with.
I would like to answer to that part, although the question and answer are not on topic.
You seem to be concerned about the cohesion of the community and the positive contribution would be to increase that. Of course, since the thread is about moderation.
But when we are talking about a bbs or forum community, what members give to the community is the content of their messages. The content of the messages is what actually forms the value of the community. Therefore when a member finds a new interesting subject to post about or gives a reply which extends the reflection on a topic by bringing new arguments or new facts, etc… that member contributes positively to the community.
I’ve seen a spate of comments that were hidden not because they contained rule-breaking content, but because they apparently went against the grain of the more popular point of view. I didn’t pay close enough attention to have links for them now, but I was bothered when I saw them. Flags shouldn’t be used like downvotes.
And for that matter, hiding flagged comments seems to be a futile gesture to me, since the first thing I do when I see them is to unhide them, to see what the fuss is about.
They may have been hidden by user flags, but @orenwolf has made it clear time and time again that the mods here do not uphold a post’s hidden status simply because it’s “unpopular.” The mod has to determine that a site rule has been broken. If not the comment is turned back on.
TL3 and TL4 people would agree. They understand that flags are mainly there to alert the mods and help avoid derails.
I do that now and again, but usually only to see what awful garbage specific posters have spewed this time. And since the Ignore feature has been implemented I do that less and less.
And in the past, I’ve personally had comments eaten simply because the publisher didn’t like them, not because they actually violated any of the terms.
So have others.
It what it is.
Again, it states in the rules that TPTB here can delete whatever content they want at any time for any reason they deem fit. That’s what we all agreed to by joining the site.
Seriously, though; does it need to be spelled out in sky-writing or something, for some people to finally “get the memo?”
At this point, the constant hamster wheel objections that some people seem to insist upon dragging out endlessly really start to seem like a thinly-veiled excuse; when the complaint really seems to be that they cannot just post whatever content they want however they want with impunity.
Well, I can certainly relate to that, but complaining about that is like complaining about a lightning strike. At least there’s the possibility of appealing to the other users’ sense of fair play and reason.
And I particularly wasn’t complaining about any of my posts that were flagged and hidden. It hasn’t happened often, but when it has, it’s been completely justified.
Yeah… it’s a real shock to one’s system when it finally dawns upon someone that they are, in fact, not the center of the universe, and that the world does not actually revolve around their personal wants and needs.
Regarding trust level 3; I’ve personally gained and lost that badge multiple times, depending upon how active I have or have not been, within a given time frame.
To quote someone else upthread; c’est la vie, no big deal.
Yes, I’d agree that is a huge part of bringing value, though not necessarily the entirety of it.
Also, re-reading my own comment that you’re replying to, I hope no one thought I was implying that users at TL1 or TL2 don’t (or can’t) contribute to the community. Everyone who comments in a responsible way contributes. And everyone can notice spam or trollies or inappropriate behavior, and flag when it seems appropriate to do so.
There’s a fine line between going against the grain and bad faith arguments or JAQing. And there some topics where being “against the grain” whether well intentioned or not will get you slapped (victim blaming, racism, etc).
the discourse system gains value from the community in two ways. one way, which you note, is the value derived from the content of the posts and comments from the community members. the second way the community contributes is through their participation in the moderation process through the use of flags. community flags are a vital and inherent part of the discourse moderation system. they prevent the kind of obnoxious, shitposting behavior that can be seen in so many forums. you seem very dismissive of that kind of contribution but i’ve participated in forums in the past which did not have community flagging baked into the system and instead had overworked, irritable, and angry moderators instead. i know what kind of atmosphere i prefer.
can people abuse the flagging system? sure, but they aren’t going to be able to abuse it for long because the next line of defense for our community’s standards are the moderators who can see that kind of abuse in action and do what is needed to stop it.
I slipped off TL3 and saw that as an opportunity to spend less time on the board.
Even though some posts (like @AndreStmaur’s) disappear far faster than they ought to, suggesting that there are some flag-happy people, it wouldn’t be an issue if it was easier to unflag them. Once or twice in the past I have messaged the moderators to suggest that someone had posted in good faith and shouldn’t have been flagged, but it would be nice if there was some kind of unflag button, even if only available at higher trust levels. (Or, maybe some number of “likes” from higher TL could play that role.)
