Gun instructor shot dead by 9-year-old with Uzi

What a surprise. You have no idea what the word “brandishing” means just like you know practically nothing else about firearms or their usage. In the photo I am shooting, not brandishing, a Bulgarian Krinkov. Brandishing is defined “wave or swing (something, such as a weapon) in a threatening or excited manner” which is not what I was doing. One wonders if you might be cherry picking the word that fits with the narrative you prefer.

If you actually read the Kleck survey you’d find that he actually was very critical of his findings which is why his estimate had such a large margin of error, and the Lott studies also did so. In fact if you read the rebuttal, which I’ve already read, you’ll find that even they agree that the number of DGUs (defensive gun uses) each year exceeds the number of criminal uses. One wonders if you might be cherry picking the evidence that fits with the narrative you prefer.

“The quality of which sadly is rather poor” equals “which does not agree with my assumptions” I suppose.

Yeah, either that or the FACT that the statistics that ATF, FBI, and CDC have compiled over the years simply don’t support the narrative you insist must be the result. One wonders if you might be cherry picking the result that fits with the narrative you prefer.

They didn’t oppose “scientific” research, they opposed gun control hit pieces funded by taxpayer dollars. The Joyce Foundation, Bloomberg, and others provide plenty of money for bought and paid for results and the NRA watched the Democratically controlled Congress prior to 1996 funnel money to hacks like Heminway whose conclusions were a given before they even spent to funding. The CDC study was done without bias using raw data, not cherry picked information like the Heminway studies. One wonders if you might be cherry picking the researchers that will provide the narrative you prefer.

Yup…citing the actual reduction in violent crime, the actual reduction in homicide, and the actual record breaking firearm sales occurring at the same time was difficult work. It requires looking at two sources, the FBI Uniform Crime Report and the ATF Background Check data. I guess you’re accusing ATF and the FBI of being biased or something? You’re citing a “researcher” who used newspaper articles which he even admitted were a terribly inaccurate source of information. One wonders if you might be hostile to hard information that counters the narrative you prefer.

We can both use the FBI, CDC, and ATF data to draw conclusions from, they are very clear. In every area except drug-related crime, firearms accidents, homicides, and violent crime have decreased by double digits percentages over the last 30 years while firearms purchases have greatly increased. That isn’t even questionable. It isn’t a funded “hit piece” and it wasn’t compiled by a pro-gun group. If you can’t surmise that firearms ownership has no causal connection to firearms crime from that your ability to read and review ANY study is likely highly suspect.

Maybe someone else in this thread wants to have this argument.

It’s a Bulgarian Krinkov and a legally registered NFA item because it’s an SBR (short barreled rifle) which means that the owner submitted passport type photos, fingerprints, and a check for $200 to the ATF and underwent background checks by the local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer, here it was our county sheriff) and the FBI and waited six months or more to take possession of the gun. There is no “clip” in the photo but it has a standard capacity 30-round magazine. Nice gun, not great for long range but good for cramped spaces.

How many rounds does it take? That’s a question that gets answered after the encounter, not before. Any good instructor will tell you that having more than you need is ALWAYS better than having less.

A shotgun would be fine, but it really doesn’t provide any advantages over a rifle and has a lower capacity. I’m not really a shotgun guy and don’t shoot them often so I’d rather protect myself with a weapon I am more familiar with because it’s safer for me, safer for innocent bystanders, and more dangerous for the intruder. Typically that equates to either my AR or a 9mm handgun, both of which would offend you with their standard capacity magazines.

A hunting rifle? Probably the WORST choice for a self-defense firearm. Too long, too heavy, and mine has a scope on it since I’m usually shooting at least 100 yards or better and is therefor next to useless for home defense. Plus, the ammunition for most big game hunting rifles is FAR more powerful than the ammo for guns like the Krink and the opportunity for over penetration, shooting through walls, etc. is greatly increased.

But, of course, those are the sort of questions I expect to get from people who have absolutely zero training in armed self-defense and generally no clue about firearms and their usage. I assume that the Dunning-Kruger Effect is involved in their combined lack of knowledge of the subject and their sanctimonious declarations of how it should be done. Do yourself a favor and stop thinking that ANYTHING you see in movies and on TV concerning armed self-defense has any bearing on reality, and also realize that Joe Biden’s two shots from a shotgun advice was stupid (I know that’s repetitive when referring the something Biden said), dangerous, and in most places also illegal for very good reasons.

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FYI. Most defensive uses of guns just involves showing them, no shots fired. Your linked study did NOT include that little fact. They just looked at circumstances when the gun was fired. Nice way to exclude inconvenient data…

Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary, depending on the study’s population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Higher end estimates by Kleck and Gertz show between 1 to 2.5 million DGUs in the United States each year.[1]:64–65[2][3] Low end estimates cited by Hemenway show approximately 55,000-80,000 such uses each year.[4][5] Middle estimates have estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.

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It’s a Bulgarian Krinkov which is an AK variant as you stated. It’s an NFA registered SBR and is a friend’s house gun. We actually run 3-Gun and subgun competitions (and have since the mid-90s) and we do a biannual machine gun shoot. Our group is combination of small Type 07 SOT manufacturers, NFA collectors, Class III dealers, and NRA trainers/range officers and pretty much the most law abiding group of people you’d ever want to meet. We love to preserve historic guns, research the mechanics of different systems, review new guns being developed, and compete against each other on the range. I always enjoy people like colinInSpace who have some composite idea of gun owners, their behavior, and their motivations that is in such stark in contrast with reality. Get in a gun fight with ATF? What, like when I go to seminars or have dinner with them? I know a handful of agents who would get a good chuckle out of that assertion!

Anywho, if he thinks the Krink has too many rounds I doubt he’d like this build I assisted with…M60E4 Mk. 43 Backpack…impractical and heavy but fun to shoot!

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Do you need to know why your chainsaw comparative is completely off the wall or do you already know?

I’m betting you know.

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Let me guess… You are going to say “Nobody needs a gun, but some people need chainsaws,” right?

Wait… wait… “Guns are made for killing people, and chainsaws aren’t.”

Oh, I know. I have it. “Guns are evil, and chainsaws aren’t.”

Or is it the fact that chainsaws are not explicitly protected by the Constitution.

Or could it be that the phrase “When chainsaws are outlawed, only outlaws will have chainsaws” doesn’t have the same ring to it. It that it?

The issue being that the proposed restrictions will have a huge effect on recreational shooters and almost zero effect on the criminal/homicide activity you are using as justification. You propose limiting access to rifles with standard capacity magazines (not CLIPS) that are used in less than 1% of crime as an answer to the fact that as those weapons have become more popular murder and violent crime rates have decreased. There isn’t a shred of logic to that and there isn’t a study that can be done to make it make sense without completely ignoring that reality or devolving into emotional arguments and “what ifs” with no real-world justification.

Horseshit. First it was 15 is better than 30, then it was 10 is better than 15, then it was 7 is better than 10. We all know that the end game is zero so are you simply lying to us or just lying to yourself?

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I’d again like to know why a private citizen needs to own or have access to a fully automatic weapon.

Fully automatic guns require permission from a local law enforcement official. Plus, you have to pay a $200 tax just for the honor of owning one. Then, when you buy it, it will cost in the neighborhood of at least $15,000. I have NEVER shot a fully-automatic gun, and, other than a local gun dealer who owns a firing range, I know of nobody who even has one.

But, to answer your real question, they need one because they want one. The “need” discussion gets so tiring. Do you “need” free speech or protection from unreasonable searches and seizures?

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Since when is “need” a basis on whether something should be owned or legal?

  1. Full auto guns are tightly regulated, and illegal in some states.

  2. Due to a bill during the Regan years, all full auto guns must have been registered by 1986. So no new guns can be added (though I think in rare cases the ATF has grandfathered in historic pieces found in attics, etc).

  3. Thus the supply is very limited and the demand is high, usually the rich are the only ones who can afford one.

  4. If you have the money and want to buy one, you have to fill out forms, pay a $200 tax, and wait 6mo+ for the ATF to clear you and get the sign off of the local Sheriff.

  5. IIRC, in the last 50 years there has only been one case of a LEGAL full auto gun being used in a crime, and that was a cop. (Note, there are cases of people doing illegal conversions and using them in crimes.)

  6. There is a sort of work around where one can pay the large licensing fees and do all the paper work to become either a Class III manufacture or dealer, so you can make and/or sell machine guns for police/military use.

So - as you can see - there isn’t a lot to worry about here.

As for need - do you NEED a car that can go over 80mph? We don’t need sports cars, motorcycles, or roller coasters. But it’s fun. And while yes they are fairly rare, I am guessing there are several million machine guns registered out there hurting no one.

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I understand. I wish I could draw a parallel like no one NEEDS a race car and most race cars are not legal on public roads but this doesn’t seem sufficient. Gun usage covers a range from hunting, recreation, self-defense, collecting, government sanctioned law enforcement and government sanctioned battle so it’s just too tricky to create comparisons.

It’s not what you’d call an accurate weapon. More useful for surprise attack overrun, or frontal assault.

But the point is: “why should you even care?” Seriously? Even if somebody was rich enough to afford a real machine gun, why should that bother you? For every gun used in a murder, there are about 30,000 that hurt nobody. Statistically speaking, the average male “member” is more likely to commit a rape than the average gun is to commit a murder.

Take a deep breath and read this:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/overreaction_an.html

A great quote from the article:

Novelty plus dread plus a good story equals overreaction.

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Maybe I mis-read him a bit and he’s confusing the Uzi under discussion for machine pistols like the the Micro Uzi and Mac 10. The Uzi we’re talking about is a full size sub machine gun intended to be fired from the shoulder using a stock and foregrip. With those you can use the full auto muzzle climb to shoot a straight, unaimed, horizontal, line of bullets in an arc in front of you by hold the gun sideways while firing. Its unrelated and pre-dates media depictions of side brandished hand guns.

And whatever rumor or explanation about holding pistols (or machine pistols) sideways might exist there’s really no practical purpose to it outside of brandishing. It looks menacing, mostly due to its current media/social connotations. Holding a gun sideways largely makes it impossible to aim, and makes it much more difficult to control while firing. It can also cause shell casings to be ejected upwards towards your face rather than to the side. This is going to be even worse if your holding the gun sideways, up over a counter, pointed downward with a cocked wrist. It might be an excellent way to threaten a guy cowering behind a counter, but its a pretty shitty way to go about actually shooting anything.

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I also know it’s far more dangerous for kids to live in a house with a pool than to live in a house with a gun

RonPaulBot sez: BECAUSE FREEDOMS!

On a serious note, I would think that those of us in the BoingBoing discussers-community have learned by now that you can’t legislate away technology. You can try to ban P2P-file-sharing or automatic weapons, but it’s not going to work. Somebody’s going to invent a new method of a better 3D printer to get their own. You can’t realistically control access. Sure, Israel can bomb Hamas back into the stone-age every now-and-then, but more tunnels will be dug and more home-grown rockets will spring up. This is a social problem, not a legislative problem.

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By promoting guns as a method of personal/home protection the arms industry gets to sell ever-larger arsenals to police, who have to upgrade their weapons to compete with widespread high-powered weaponry. The arms race between private citizens and police is just warming up…

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There are a lot of police that support the honest people being armed…

In my own state (Colorado), there were three HORRIBLE laws that were recently passed. Almost every single sheriff signed on to a law suit to get the new laws declared unconstitutional.

Or, a well regulated clockwork universe. The clockwork metaphor embraces all things, even the mind.

That’s an even more spectacular fact given that many people let kids play unsupervised in their guns, have hours-long parties in and around their guns (where alcohol may be present) and often let go of the maintenance of the gun, leading to horrible slip-fall misfires.

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snark snark! Yet: statistics.

Sharks vs. Cows, et alia.

Just to be clear, swimming pools are not more dangerous for children than guns. That is, if you think access to and misuse of guns is in any way part of the problem. Volition is a big issue here. One person does a gun to another person while the other person isn’t necessarily interested in having a gun done to them. Kids do swimming pools to themselves… but I forget, are suicide statistics allowable or not?

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