Well, I guess I worded that first sentence poorly. I meant that the self-consciousness is on the part of some fans and observers of the music, not so much internalized by actual creators within the genre. I think the rest of my comment – which was snipped away – did a better job of contextualizing what I was trying to say.
So to clarify, I don’t think rap as a genre is inherently self-conscious about lyricism, but a lot of the dialog surrounding it can be, both by fans and detractors of it. Rap (especially in the 90s) was highly criticized in the mainstream for being misogynist and glorifying drug dealing and other criminality, but there was some underlying racism to that critique. The author of this post states that his gateway to rap music was Eminem – not because of lyricism, per se, but because he related to the content more – and found other 90s rap “odious” and even hated it. He also states that less lyrical rap is “just” party rap – but rap as an art form literally originated from dance parties.
I think it’s true that someone can simply prefer more lyrical rap than other types, but there’s a tendency for some to stigmatize certain kinds of rap that I’m referring to.
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you vis a vis authenticity. My point also, though, is that “lyrical” rap isn’t more authentic than other kinds (and the author also arrives at this conclusion, I think, as does the video that was posted). I may have overstated it, but I feel there’s a tendency to stigmatize rap that just sounds good compared to other musical genres which I feel comes from the historical presence hip hop has held in the mainstream.
Drill is everywhere in my neighborhood. Everywhere. I can’t find anything to like about it - no lyricism, boring production, every artist has the same delivery, or close enough to it as to make no difference. I’m not the target audience, so my opinion doesn’t really mean much here, but I’ve been listening to hip hop for a long time, back when old school was the only school, and the new shit just doesn’t work for me. That’s not true of the other genres I listen to, I still find new music that impresses me, but drill is straight trash, and it stands for nothing except money and violence. There’s just plain no joy or intelligence in it.
I don’t get where this self-consciousness argument comes from. So much of the history of rap is rooted in one-upmanship by proving you’re better than your contemporaries. There’s nothing self-conscious about that - if anything many rappers are as conspicuous as possible about this. Fans love this stuff and will have endless arguments about who was the true winner in any of the great beefs in the genre’s history. You’ll see deep analysis of every word in every dis track, which was the better dis, finding the hidden meanings, and determining that one line that cemented the true “winner”.
These weren’t unfounded. A lot of rap is very misogynistic, and gangsta rap was having its golden age in that time period. There were no doubts elements of racism here since there was plenty of misogyny and glorifying criminality in other music at the time, but the complaints were no less valid.
Is it ever the case? With pretty much any musical genre to be a “dominating” artist you need a combination of talent (not necessarily musical talent), business/marketing savvy, a healthy dose of luck, and in many cases a willingness to throw ethics out the window. It’s rare to be truly successful without most or all of these things.
I didn’t say that, “basically” or otherwise in my either my original comment or the one I clarified. Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion based on what I actually wrote?
MY point is that artists are not driven simply by wishing to please the white gaze, nor are consumers. I was responding directly to:
Knowing what I know of the history of Black popular culture, specifically those for Black audiences (which rap primarily was until the late 70s, when it started getting attention outside of the Bronx), I’m pretty confident that the interest in whatever artistic style was driven by the same thing any artist is driven by. The audience they were most concerned was not a white audience for much the history of Black music. White fans came of their own accord, of course, but to say that artistic concerns were driven by racism is just not factually correct on it’s face.
And plenty of other genres of music focus on lyrical authenticity and artistry.
I’m not sure that matters with regards to my point. I am white, BTW, and teach American history. My fiend of study is popular culture, specifically punk rock and youth cultures.
[quote=“ficuswhisperer, post:46, topic:211993, full:true”]
I don’t get where this self-consciousness argument comes from. So much of the history of rap is rooted in one-upmanship by proving you’re better than your contemporaries. There’s nothing self-conscious about that - if anything many rappers are as conspicuous as possible about this. Fans love this stuff and will have endless arguments about who was the true winner in any of the great beefs in the genre’s history. You’ll see deep analysis of every word in every dis track, which was the better dis, finding the hidden meanings, and determining that one line that cemented the true “winner”.
Thanks for the reply.
By “self-consciousness” I’m referring to hyper-awareness about how the genre itself is perceived both from within and without, not the bravado style of the art form itself or its performers. There’s an aspect of respectability politics that is part of the discourse about Hip Hop as a subculture (and of course, larger Black culture).
These weren’t unfounded. A lot of rap is very misogynistic, and gangsta rap was having its golden age in that time period. There were no doubts elements of racism here since there was plenty of misogyny and glorifying criminality in other music at the time, but the complaints were no less valid.
The validity of the critique is not in question, per se; what is is what kind of traction those critiques might have received when leveled at rap music specifically vs. other musical genres. For example, the Dynamite Hack cover version of Boyz in the Hood is less censored when played on rock stations than original NWA version is when played on Hip Hop stations. Or the fact that the author found urban Hip Hop odious but enjoyed Eminem (who also had violent and misogynist lyrics).
Is it ever the case? With pretty much any musical genre to be a “dominating” artist you need a combination of talent (not necessarily musical talent), business/marketing savvy, a healthy dose of luck, and in many cases a willingness to throw ethics out the window. It’s rare to be truly successful without most or all of these things.
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I mean…sure? I guess that was my point to an extent.
MY point is that artists are not driven simply by wishing to please the white gaze, nor are consumers. I was responding directly to:
Knowing what I know of the history of Black popular culture, specifically those for Black audiences (which rap primarily was until the late 70s, when it started getting attention outside of the Bronx), I’m pretty confident that the interest in whatever artistic style was driven by the same thing any artist is driven by. The audience they were most concerned was not a white audience for much the history of Black music. White fans came of their own accord, of course, but to say that artistic concerns were driven by racism is just not factually correct on it’s face.
And plenty of other genres of music focus on lyrical authenticity and artistry.
I agree with that.
What I’m positing is that some of the discourse about the lyricism or “consciousness” of rap fits into a larger discussion having to do with respectability politics of Hip Hop as a subculture. I mean, if it’s considered that, even among rap fans there is a spectrum of quality or authenticity within Rap – it’s worth remembering that there’s a whole generation of [POC] that fail to see the genres merits or embrace it as part of the larger Black musical tradition (Jazz musician Wynton Marsalis is pretty vehement about Hip Hop’s negative influence as a culture force).
I’m not saying all debates about lamenting rap’s departure from lyricism exist in this context, but I do think it’s an element in some discussions, consciously and subconsciously.
I’m not sure that matters with regards to my point. I am white, BTW, and teach American history. My fiend of study is popular culture, specifically punk rock and youth cultures.
There’s nothing wrong with being white, of course; I was just responding to your GIF.
Thanks for the reply.
I’ve stayed out of this conversation because I have had nothing of value to offer on the subject, until now. Here’s a somewhat relevant article from today at the Chicago Reader:
I’ve always seen music as space-creating. Sometimes I want to relate to meaningful lyrics. Sometimes I don’t. Some music is made in such a way as to give one the option to do either or both. Some music is solitary and contemplative. Some is social. Sometimes emotional. Some is unobtrusive. Celebratory, sexual, stupid, spiritual… whatever. IME all of it is fucking amazing though because it’s one of the coolest and least harmful things our species does.
So much art criticism in the world strikes me more as missed opportunities for self-reflection though.
Seems like there is some Terry Pratchett or Neil Gaiman quote about the importance of stories here, but I can’t think of it. But yeah, music and storytelling are probably two of the things that make us the most human.
One of my favorite Chinese proverbs is, “The faintest ink is stronger than the longest memory.” However, there’s an assumption in it that really hit home while reading one of Anne McCaffrey’s books. She described how a society developed over many centuries, and as the people’s needs and focus changed a lot of knowledge, skills, and technology were lost. Written records could no longer be relied upon for passing along information because the materials they used fell apart over time.
So, leaders chose music and stories as a replacement. They made an effort to include critical information that future generations would need to survive, and assigned people to teach both to adults and children. Although some of the themes took on mythical status to their descendants, they contained enough information (advice and warnings) to make a difference when that knowledge was needed.
When it comes to music, we’re spoiled for choice compared to the characters in those books. Still, I wonder how many themes from current events will be passed along in a similar way. We still share nursery rhymes about influenza or the plague, and now there are raps about the pandemic. I’m curious to learn which ones will be remembered 20 or 30 years from now.
I was responding directly to:
