If you meet violence with violence because you believe your current situation is exceptional you are dealing with a Nazi, you have failed passed the test, and are no pacifist.
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Except Spencer didn’t seem to think so; he cried about the possibility of becoming a meme and worried about his movement. The essay bilbliophile quotes had a solid look at this. Considering that, I can’t even agree:
I could only go as far as saying it wasn’t optimal strategy. But this movement has built itself up by pretending to be untouchable supermen, and even this one moment shows as a great illustration they aren’t. What they pretend to be their strength is really just our indulgence. And really, I don’t think they are actually waiting on us to escalate things, just looking for chances they can do so in relative safety.
Anyway, I can remember some conversations I’ve had with a dedicated pacifist. His position was that it wasn’t moral to eschew use of violence as it came up, that simply wasn’t enough. Instead, it came with the obligation to dedicate yourself to making sure things never went down a road where violence could prove necessary. I have a lot of respect for this position.
Right now it’s not going so well. I think it’s more than fair to say that laissez faire like don’t feed the trollies has proved to be dangerous enabling, as more and more people are genuinely getting attacked by them. If you are opposed to violence, now is when you should be stepping up to do what you can to avoid it, because there are much more serious cases happening than just a would-be genocidaire getting hit in public.
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Wow. Hey, I don’t know what your test is but it isn’t a survival test.
I can guarantee you that your ancestors failed this test, that’s why you’re here. The real test is “can you recognize a lethal threat and respond in accordance with a desire to continue living”
Maybe we’re wrong, but if we’re not wrong about the threat then we’re absolutely right if our objective is to survive and do os in a society that reflects our beliefs and values. Maybe survival and the rest aren’t part of your values. If so then you can also be right from your perspective.
I’d say the only failing is that slapping someone who wants to kill you is probably going to escalate things. You’re actually supposed to just kill threats to your life.
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Hell to the yeah. 
Even if you are a pacifist, there’s still stuff that can be done to make alt-right Nazi scum unwelcome in society. Realistically, I’m more than a bit shit in a fight and about the most actual damage I could do would be to bleed or cry on them, but if someone else is getting a kicking, then I can at least take a few lumps and help a fellow human out. A kicking shared is a kicking halved.
And then there’s all the other stuff you can do in everyday life without raising a fist or a placard that will make an alt-right Nazi scumbag’s life a misery. Get creative, ya know. 
But to just idly stand by and ignore them and pretend they don’t exist is a pretty privileged position to take.
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You sound like Sen. Joe McCarthy carping about communism… There is no scheme of governing that is not an opinion. Do not dare paint me as pro-fascist, but you cannot use the same tactics as fascists and not commit the same wrongs, regardless of your reasoning. Pragmatism rules… If you act like a fascist, you are a fascist.
[quote=“chenille, post:65, topic:95879”]
Except Spencer didn’t seem to think so; he cried about the possibility of becoming a meme and worried about his movement. [/quote]
Like I give a fuck what Spencer thinks.
Refusing to react is an action. It is a conscious decision, and often it is not the path of least resistance. My eyes are open, and I can see clearly where we are headed, but there is no path right now. Just giving into testosterone soaked notions of punching Nazis does nothing… Actually less than nothing.
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it always seems too much of a happy coincidence when the thing your lizard brain insists will make you happy seems to coincide neatly with the rationale your higher intellect is able to construct to justify it.
It helps to not confuse garden variety authoritarian fascists for nazis.
There are venn diagrams to be consulted before you swing that fist.
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Tyranny lacks nuance, what are you up to?
I am not giving into anything - I will not resort to violence to express my opinion. That is all Nazi punching is - The puncher is saying “I hate your beliefs and I am going to hit you”. That is about the most childish form of (un)civil comment I can think of.
The most childish I can think of is where someone violates someone elses right to speak for themselves - misrepresents the positions of those they oppose and then puts themself above such petty motives - and then calls themselves totally non-violent.
A physical pacifist who thinks he can read minds and speak for other people is still a violent man. In many ways more dangerous than a warrior.
Indeed.
The point of punching a Nazi is not to change the Nazi’s mind. It is to break the spell of superiority which Nazis are only able to weave when liberal democrats cage themselves in a cult of passivity.
Killing the Nazi would not accomplish the same goal. A dead Nazi is a martyr, his corpse inspiring others to take up his cause. But a punched Nazi, sitting in the street, blood flowing from his nose, is pathetic, inspiring nobody and nothing.
Judge Perlman’s instructions are specific.
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And yet:
In a certain sense I don’t care what Spencer thinks either. In another, though, what people like him think is important to understand because we need to deter them from hurting others. Your repeating don’t react and they’ll go away without evidence it helps is entirely unconvincing; that strategy has been tried, and turns out to let them escalate until there are people who can’t afford not to react because their safety is at stake.
Find something better, because if the only answers put out there are punching Nazis and trying to ignore them while they threaten and assault Muslims and Jews and LGBT* and women and…well, you can see what most of us think of that option. Insisting we should all stick to that is doing less than nothing. We need to figure out how to best stop them instead.
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Opposition to fascism is not a scheme of governing. It is a respect for all people’s dignity and rights. I did not dare to paint you as pro-fascist, merely not anti-fascist; for, what is necessary for evil to gain power but for good men to do nothing?
Punching fascists (which I’m not even addressing) is not the tactics of fascism. The tactics of fascism is to stir up people’s fears and prejudices and sneak in the door inch by inch under the silent consent of “it is necessary” - the end goal is violence; not the tactics.
Fascism is not a difference in beliefs; in opinion; in political leaning; or a vendor in the market of ideas, it is a scorpion on the river bank.
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Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His.
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This is a bit off topic, but maybe not so much. I’m 62 y.o. now. A few years back, in downtown Austin, in the middle of a normal busy day, I hear a woman screaming. Someone was trying to snatch her purse. I’m at least half a block away. And no one, NO ONE was doing anything but watching. So I ran, possibly thinking that someone, ANYONE would do something before I got there. Nope. So I get there and go ‘I do not know what the FUCK I am doing!’ I have never been in a fight in my life; punched at least once. But no fights. It’s a bit hazy at this point. I end up on the ground, which, oddly puts me out of reach of fists, but allows me to use my feet. Fortunately for me, the attempted purse snatcher is just an inept as I was and probably on meth or something and he couldn’t deal with my feet. Around this time, finally, the doormen from Austin’s tallest building decide to surround me. The snatcher realizes he is far outclassed now (and here’s why I think drugs were involved) inexplicably removes his shirt before running away. I had successfully stopped a snatch and detained the idiot long enough that he was caught by the police a mere block away. What I am going for here, is that without thinking, I acted. And did some good. Made me feel like a better person, too. We all have this in us. But mostly we are just cowed into submission. Still, each and every one of us can act. And it can take just one person to make a difference.
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Punching Nazi’s is the context of this thread. Have a bit of discipline, aye?
Set your own tasks chenile, and I will set mine. I know violence just results in more violence, if that is your path, then our paths diverge.
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True that you can’t kill an idea but not true in that violence is an effective tool to either hold the line or to eliminate an immediate threat. The previous is of course applicable in armed conflict but not always in civil matters.
Above two are both true. Personally I think that looking at 2017 in 1937 terms (reducto ad hitlerum) is not productive.
However being prepared to stand your ground is never a bad idea for a Jew.
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Thank you for that clip. Apparently the whole movie is available on You Tube. I am not sure if I can stand two hours of that at this point, tho. But it sure was nice to see Danny Kaye again 
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6 posts were split to a new topic: Discussions on moderation
I’d like to recommend to you a book by Barbara Tuchman with the incredibly boring title of ‘General Stilwell and the American Experience in China, 1911-1945’ . Stilwell was nicknamed Vinegar Joe and he’s my favorite general of WWII. A soldier’s soldier. He found himself in Burma stuck behind enemy lines with a bunch of civilians. Force marched them out through the jungle. Did not lose a single one. Any book on MacArthur will be fascinating. FDR considered him and Huey Long the two most dangerous people in America. You just haven’t read any good military histories
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A bit off topic but I sure wish more Americans would read MacArthur.
He might have benefited from reading the writing of and about Rabbi Meir Kahane.
