No problem. We all do that sometimes, so no worries!
3 Likes
That is arguable, and there are fat books on the shelves of philosophy and theology libraries arguing it.
Pacifism, however, can possibly be a moral failing. For instance, the Quaker merchants out of England at some times depended on the Royal Navy for protection against pirates. They were prepared to “lend” non-Quaker seamen of their ships to the Navy as a quid pro quo. This involves a level of sophistication of argument that, on the surface, one does not expect of Quakers.
In Moby-Dick the Pequod attempts successfully to outrun the pirates. The captain is not called on to make the decision whether to use the guns. Had this happened, it would be, I think, a different book.
3 Likes
FWIW, when I came up in my local punk scene (and I know the story is similar to many others…) violence was most definitely how we kept neo-nazis and boneheads out of our shows/parties/etc… We would organize “welcoming parties” whenever we heard of a new crop of fascists coming into town. The Nazi’s house would be appropriately tagged, letting all in the immediate area know exactly who their new neighbor was. After that, if they ever showed peep around town they’d get a good beating. Usually it didn’t take long for them to get outta town-- no one likes having to look over their shoulder every time they go out in public.
They never gained a foothold on our turf, and moral/ethical concerns aside, it was direct action in the form of a warning followed up with a credible threat of physical deterrence that kept it this way.
I will say, two decades later I certainly don’t miss all the interpersonal violence inherit w/ coming of age in the punk scene, and I certainly regret many of the things that I did. I consider myself a peaceful person, I climbed the mountain and came back down to a more thoughtful way of life. But I don’t regret for one second the measures we took against fascists, and I don’t think I ever will.
17 Likes
Punching a Nazi will happen a lot sooner than any “revolution” ever will.
Let us consider where Nazis not “doing anything” actually led to historically: millions died.
4 Likes
Thanks to today’s posts, we now know of fat Siberian tigers who really need the exercise…
Maybe punching isn’t necessary?
and what did the tigers do to deserve that?
3 Likes
When was that? They were running street gangs in Germany from the end of WW1, it just took a little time for them to evolve an organisation and an identity.
Punching Nazis?
Really? Is this what we have become?
I’m so disappointed… This is America - land of the free home of the brave! Shouldn’t we be shooting them instead?
2 Likes
No, because then they are martyrs.
4 Likes
(To be fair, that’s more anti-racist skinhead iconography… but lots of overlap in many punk scenes back in the day)
7 Likes
I am all in favour of diplomacy and negotiation especially as I am a pretty big coward, but as Clausewitz observed, war is the continuation of politics by other means (Krieg ist die Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln). The original Quaker dedication to pacifism has to be seen against a background of civil conflict and the concern of the monarchy that the Protestant sects arising were often revolutionary; that they developed their quietism into a nuanced approach to peacekeeping is a later development. And, like Christians, nominal Buddhists often pay only lip service to nonviolence. It was Zen that introduced the idea into Japan of Bushido, trying to reduce civil violence by bringing in the idea that warriors did not make war on women and children, because the Zen masters wanted to work with human nature rather than against it. They recognised that if you were set on by bandits, rather than try and persuade them of the error of their ways through submission to being murdered, it might be better to whack them with a big stick.
2 Likes
I’m glad you finally came clean on this matter.[quote=“Enkita, post:121, topic:95879”]
It was Zen that introduced the idea into Japan of Bushido
[/quote]
What?!? Source please, doesn’t match what I’ve learned and I’m curious.
It’s not accurate to call it Bushido (which was a later, nationalist reimagining as I’m sure you’re aware) but the formalisation of the samurai caste began in the Taika reforms, which were a direct response to the rising influence of Zen (and Confucianism, to a lesser extent) and the need for the shogunate to consolidate power through a state religion.
All of the uniquely Japanese trappings of Zen Buddhism (tea ceremony etc) are designed to consolidate the ‘proper’ Confucianist relationship between the shogun and his daimyo, and the daimyo’s control over their subordinate samurai.
I am just finishing my lunch break and don’t have time to Google links but they’re out there and this isn’t a particularly novel view of history. Early 20th century Nationalism created Bushido but the samurai caste it romanticises couldn’t and wouldn’t have existed without the influence of Zen as a state religion.
2 Likes
Sorry, but you lobbed that one right over the plate: my ancestors where Mennonites. They past the test, and that’s why I’m here. Their philosophy of non-violence was formed in the early 1500’s, while on the receiving end of a genocide that lasted several decades. The Mennonites would not exist, could have no cultural identity persisting these 5 centuries, without their pacifism.
1 Like
So you didn’t evolve from humanity? I did not know that mennonites were a new species. Well I like the beards and envy your races entire existence based on privilege and lack of conflict with other entities.
Fair point. In response I would say that when you speak of appeasing Nazis, you refer to Europe in 1938. I think this is more like Weimar 10 years earlier. Street brawls between communists and fascist were common. The public was so terrorized by fascist provocateurs, and communist taking the bait, that they eventually acquiesced when a totalitarian government restored order.
1 Like
I love that, and just wanted to repeat it. Thanks for posting.
3 Likes
I’m glad you finally came clean on this matter.
Hey, at least she left you your little corner of profound authority about your nation of residence, your religion, and your remarkable understanding of outrage.
4 Likes
Well let’s just agree there have been different iterations of that system
This really goes against the history I’ve learned. Zen is really a minority offshoot that barely existed around the time you refer. Pure Land yes sure plus pre existing Confucianism.
Are you confusing Buddhism with Shinto?
