Erin go bragh!
But please, Mr. Bechizza, it’s same-sex marriage. I know it was called “gay marriage” for a long time. Soon, though, it’ll just be called what it is: marriage.
I used same-sex marriage in the copy. Headlines are a special little kingdom
Ireland hasn’t been ‘deeply-Catholic’ for a good while now, Census figures are misleading (with lots of people ticking the Catholic box because they were christened and maybe dragged along to mass once a year by their parents at Christmas time, but not only are they not practicing Catholics, a decent amount of them probably don’t even believe in god). If the country really was ‘deeply-Catholic’ then we wouldn’t have seen at 75% Yes vote!
Blame the sub!
Also, yay Ireland!
Remarkable news. Just watched Pride last night, which made it quite a bit less surprising. The way same-sex marriage acceptance has developed seems like a great example of what happens when a tipping point is reached.
I just saw Pride too! Excellent movie (that apparently hews pretty closely to the true story).
They’ve still got some unfortunate fragments embedded in their constitution; and victory of apathy over something resembling catholicism that actually takes instructions from the mothership was very late by European standards; but it is hard to argue that the church hasn’t been pretty seriously hammered of late. Getting the paperwork in order would be nice(and getting rid of their new, shiny, anti-blasphemy law would be cool); but it’s nice to see that people can get on with their lives in the meantime.
It’s actually a bit curious, I’d love to know more about why: christianity in general hasn’t been so good at keeping up subscriber numbers and audience engagement across much of its traditional range in the first world; but catholicism has had an especially bad time of it. Are the protestants subflavors, in their nearly bacterial speed of schism, mutation, and competition, just turning out more attractive salvation goods? Has catholicism, because of its well developed centralized structure, copped much of the heat for sexual abuse and other abuses of office, where protestant flavors usually just fold individually if a given pastor is too tainted to continue?
They still have a lot of reserve base in assorted heavily proselytized post-colonial areas(though even there, protestant and ‘charismatic’ catholic groups have been making some inroads); but something about catholicism seems to be performing worse than I would have expected. If anything, I’d have expected the catholics to play a brutally effective ‘more-or-less-post-christian-by-belief-but-looking-for-cultural-trappings’ game. They have centuries of experience, loads of cool art history, an arsenal of finely polished ceremonies, an expert level knowledge of smells n’ bells, and a history of (notably unlike the protestants) administering these services with an eye to orthopraxy rather than orthodoxy. Seems like it’d be a win to me, if you swing that way.
I think it’s very simple, religiosity is inversely proportional to prosperity and education. Ireland rapidly developed its education system after the end of the second world war, after the end of the 80s recessions that, in conjunction with investment from the EU, started to pay off and the country rapidly became more prosperous. My generation growing up in the 80s and after have been overwhelmingly irreligious.
It will be interesting to compare our development to what’s going on in Poland now, they are much more Catholicised country, and have been held back in their development because of Communism, but there is a lot of growth going on there now, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see the coming generation growing up there now mirror what’s happened in Ireland.
Double rainbows over Dublin this morning. Looks like a sign to me!
(not my picture, but I’ve seen it attributed to 3 different people already so I don’t know whose it is)
Who knew that the gold at the end was a pair of wedding bands?
It isn’t a national 75% yes vote:
Speaking from the Dublin count, he told Irish broadcaster RTE that it appeared about 75% of votes being counted there were in favour of legalising same-sex marriage.
“Deeply Catholic” seems like a relative term. Compared to most of the rest of Europe they still are; surveys of religious belief put Ireland towards the top - in Western Europe, it’s basically just Ireland, Italy and Portugal with a majority of people who believe in “God,” substantially more than the rest of Western Europe. There seems to be substantial overlap between those who are (some degree of) “religious” in Ireland and favor same-sex marriage, oddly enough.
Officially announced as a yes as of about 2 minutes ago.
Yes: 1,201,607 No: 734,300.
That’s 62.1% yes to 37.9% no.
Turnout was 60.5%
(edited to add)- Finally, a vote whose results I can be happy about. There have been precious few of those, recently.
a slender majority of self identified Catholics supported marriage equality when polled a couple of years ago.
As to how Catholic Ireland is it depends on who’s asking and why. It isn’t straightforward . We would be quite a bit more atheist than the US though.
[quote=“Shuck, post:13, topic:58167”]
“Deeply Catholic” seems like a relative term. Compared to most of the rest of Europe they still are; surveys of religious belief put Ireland towards the top - in Western Europe, it’s basically just Ireland, Italy and Portugal with a majority of people who believe in “God,” substantially more than the rest of Western Europe.[/quote]
Belief in god doesn’t equate to Catholicism though, and certainly not ‘deep-catholicism’. Even if someone might nominally describe themselves as Catholic, the fact that they don’t got to mass and are unlikely to believe a large chunk of church doctrine means you cannot describe them or the country as deeply Catholic.
It’s rapidly changing as well, in the last census in 2011 84% of people identified as Catholic (and again, a large proportion of these aren’t really Catholic by any sensible definition of the term), but there was a study of college students done in 2013 where under 60% identified as Catholic, only 32% of those believed in transubstantiation. Bizarrely only 38% overall said they believed in god, 42% were unsure. Church attendance was a minority affair as well, 61% didn’t attend at all, and those who did only turned up a couple of times a year. If you factor those figures into the census results the number of self identifying Catholics would drop significantly, correct for actual belief and observance and those figures plummet even more.
all of which makes the stranglehold the catholic church has on the political system of Ireland all the more perverse.
It’s great the polls turned out to be correct, only a single constituency voted No, and not by a huge margin (there were only a handful of constituencies where the Yes result was close, one in Donegal by only 33 votes, most had at least a 5-10% swing).
Looks like large numbers of young people voting for the first time and people returning from abroad made sure of the margin of the victory, but also a large number of people from all walks of life across the country voted Yes where you might have assumed they would vote No. Probably a lot of people who might have wanted to vote No but voted Yes because of their kids or other family members.
Actually here in ireland the official, legal, constitutionally defined, by will of the people through plebescite, correct term is : marriage.