That would hold more water if it was a little-known TV show with a pre-fame Kutcher. This was one of the shows that made his name, and it aired internationally–even had DVD sets, if I remember rightly. Obviously not everybody watched it, but come on, of course many of the present-day finger-pointers were watching the series as it aired. Others, I’d guess, probably hadn’t been born.
Hopefully none of us are the people we were 20 years ago.
Hopefully there will come a day when we look back and realise that this current era of retroactive finger-pointing was just a little over-the-top.
Was the character reference thing a bad move? Yeah, probably. Was the apology about it a bit off? To some, obviously. But arm-flailing at the Duff thing now is just ridiculous.
Maybe so, but that doesn’t mean everyone is familiar with it or watched it often. That coupled with the lack of social media at the time and just how little people cared about shit like this back then (dismissing it as a joke, or “boys being boys” bullshit).
Yeah, because let’s go back to a time when GROWN ASS MEN talk about a god damn count-down clock on a teen becoming “legal”… it was fucking gross then and it’s fucking gross now. Women are not pieces of fucking meat to be salivated over. We’re human being and deserve to be treated with the same fucking respect as any man. If you’re really wishing we can go back to “count down clocks” on teen girls, then fuck that noise. How about fucking not? It’s was gross then and it’s gross now.
We don’t owe it to anybody to fix their shit for them. That may sound harsh, but it was ridiculous for him to even put that burden on you because it is a very selfish end for him.
Look, if we’re digging into someone’s past to illustrate a pattern of abhorrent behaviour that continues today (eg. the Bill Murray piece in vanity Fair), especially if it’s stuff that wasn’t broadcast to an international audience 20 years ago, have at it. People need to know that guys like Bill Murray are assholes. (Side note, keeping with Bill for a sec, that squirmy clip of him with Geena Davis on a chat show? Gross. Helps illustrate vividly his ongoing pattern of abhorrent behaviour. I’m all for pointing to it.)
The Kutcher clip to me looks more like one of those many regrettable “of its time” things which, if it happened today, yeah, we’d all rightly call it out.
You very much seemed to be defending it, though. Just because some found such things acceptable at the time, doesn’t make it so…
And in this case, we’re talking about him defending a rapist, so yeah, this is kind of pointing to a larger pattern of behavior that includes treating women like shit. He can fuck off.
And even if it was - how was that ever acceptable? It should not have been, now or then…
Will do! I’m an Aussie, and the case isn’t being reported on particularly widely here. Thought the clip was a one-off, but the helpful comments here are making me suspect I’m not up to speed.
You might not be, but part of my concern over your response to me was your comment about “finger pointers” as if there isn’t a real problem with regards to how women are treated in general.
It’s not really one of those “of the times” things. Creepy men lusting after young women remains very prevalent (the alt right, various “men’s rights” influencers, etc.) they all routinely talk about “getting them young”. It was gross then, it’s gross now and so is your defense of it.
Thank you for that. Fortunately my family member made that exact point (thank you, social workers!), and my decision to ignore his request is not something that ever kept me up at night, even if I’ve occasionally felt a tiny twinge of guilt/sympathy for him on those occasions when the topic has come up. But I worry a lot more about the girl he abused, and about his own children, who were also students at the school when this happened. Asking me to write a character reference was the least ridiculous thing he did.
It was the early 2000s not some ancient era before Women were even afforded basic rights.
We shouldn’t dismiss this crap from 100+ years ago let alone the 2000s. That was just as gross then as it is now and he sure as hell should have known it.
Agreed, but if I’m remembering my MTV rightly, a lot of it was characters like this behaving similarly. Seems on brand for the channel at that time. Which is what I mean by “of its time.” Doesn’t make it right, but my initial point was that there seems to be an obsession where we dig up stuff from 20 years ago and get retroactively mad at it. We want people to grow and change, but we won’t let them.
Having said THAT, though, Kutcher’s a bad example for me to have latched onto. Pattern of behaviour and whatnot. I was thinking there were, like, two or three isolated cases of him being a dick and we’re going back in time to find them. Clearly I was mistaken.
Except that’s not what’s happening here. @frauenfelder is pointing out the letter advocating leniency for a violent rapist and the non-apology video that followed after is a pattern of bad behavior for Kutcher. Who was, and still is to some extent, a public, wealthy, and powerful figure
Doesn’t look like Kutcher ever apologized for that statement. Just like he’s not owning how bad it was to write that letter asking for leniency. Another pattern of behavior.
Men do need to be called out on this kind of thing, even from 20 years ago, unless they’ve demonstrated that they have changed. Men need to be held accountable for the excuses they give other men who are rapists and predators. It needs to happen now and it needs to happen often. Statement like this need to be discussed because they contribute to rape culture.
The fact a lot of men were saying similar things “way back then” makes it even more important it finally gets discussed and Kutcher and other men are held to account for what they said. Statements like that traumatized the girls who were the target. They encouraged other men to say the same and worse. Normalized that language and the sexualization and objectification of a child.
We don’t say it doesn’t count anymore for the Nazis who are still getting caught and prosecuted. Even tho they are in their 90s. Anyone with any moral or ethical compass at all isn’t saying the Catholic church shouldn’t have to pay for the systemic child abuse they facilitated.
Why is this different? Because it was a casual comment, a joke? Maybe if was some schmoe ordinary asshole. But he was a famous person. Telling every creeper and predator "yeah! It’s totally ok to lust after a 15 year old! Publicly! "
To be forgiven a person has to demonstrate remorse and at least a willingness to change. Everything I’ve ever read about Kuchner shows he’s still a misogynist creep.
